lozgti1

Two lots of 'shooting fish in a barrel' now. Can't quite fathom it but something is going on that's a bit odd

Moley

iTrader: (9)

I saw a stat on the BBC website just now, in the 309 days this year there have been 307 mass shootings in the USA (mass being classed as 4+ victims)

Absolutely crazy

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Committing a mass killing is the only prospect of recognition for the often disenfranchised perpetrator. You could cite the insane desire for fame (actually infamy) as the cause, obligingly created by the extreme media response to any such event.

hedgecutter

iTrader: (5)

yep, reported that there were 3 mass shootings on Friday alone

domino46

but trump states its not gun related its mental health lol he must be the mentally ill one lol,, if that mentaly ill person didn't have such easy access to guns this would of likely not happened or not been as bad as it is

dpb

Rich indeed coming from someone so intent on their own ego its bordering on insanity

Torquemada

The link is poor mental health care and an over abundance of specialized weaponry that is aimed more at hunting people than hunting deer.

Neither of these things are likely to have any massive changes made to them in a positive sense any time soon.

p.s. big fan of guns. The problem is that people are just not disciplined enough or sensible enough to not shoot each other with them.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

There is no need for a private citizen to own the majority of weaponry available in the US.
Gun control is a hot potato, someone nobody seems brave enough to tackle.

If if it were a presidential candidates policy they’d be unlikely to get in. If they did get in they’d be appealled to death and they’d be unlikely to get anywhere down to the constitution. I’m sure the gun lobby bank roll some presidential campaigns?.

It doesnt take a genius to work out who the intended victims were at a country music concert. It doesn’t take a genius to work out who the intended victims were at a church.
The lack of information coming out about these attacks shows some level of cover up.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

To you and the motley bunch of other borderline wackjobs who see conspiracies and cover-ups in virtually everything that ever happens anywhere, it very likely does. To anyone else, it just shows the authorities aren't very often much better at piecing together the deep-seated psychological issues of the psychos who carry out these attacks after their deaths than before.

Torquemada

This I agree.

It's incredibly difficult to put together the motivations of a damaged/broken mind.

Those with their tin hats on are screaming all kinds of idiotic conspiracy theories. COVER-UP!! FALSE FLAG!! ANTIFA!! etc. etc.

We know this guy had a history of violent domestic abuse and it's unclear (to the general public) what else was going on in this persons private life that would have led to this outcome. I'm fairly certain it has never been the police, or federal investigators responsibility to immediately release all details of fresh and ongoing investigations.

I love how some people come along with this 20/20 hindsight saying "it doesn't take a genius to..." yada yada yada. They should go and get a job with the CIA/FBI/Police, since they are such internet/armchair experts with all the answers to these things!

domino46

but anyone is capable of having a mental breakdown at any time so how would being disciplined or sensible help in that case ?? ,,lets say there is a doctor that is perfectly sensible and goes off and buys a assault rifle as "he likes them" ,, has a break down later on and kills loads of people

this couldn't happen without the access to these guns

dpb

What we need here is more good guys with guns ...........etc etc ****e lol

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Guns are much like any other inanimate object... they don't kill without human input.

These nut jobs will... as we have seen just rent a car, van or truck and run 50 people over if they don't have a gun... no doubt there will be other equally abhorrent methods conceived at some time in the future... who knows?

Human nature unfortunately.

dpb

Those types have guns as well

It not so easy to run yourself over

Torquemada

Therein is the biggest issue and I've thought about it a lot. The only viable answer, other than taking guns away, is to have people keep their guns locked in ranges - still eaves opportunities for people to go 'postal'.

OK, let me add that people are not mentally stabe enough to have guns without blowing their neighbors faces off with them

I was brought up shooting guns in the UK .762 rifles in the main, though. So I've always enjoyed shooting. Difference here is some people are allowed to walk around with a Glock on their hip and there's always that possibility that they wake up one morning and have completely lost their ****....

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It takes far more determination to use a car, van or truck to mow people down (particularly people you actually know) than it does to wipe them out with an AR15. Determination which a lot of the psycho types in these US grudge shootings almost certainly wouldn't have.

lozgti1

True. They could just top themselves quietly.

However, why decide to pop down to your local church/pop concert and kill as many people as you can. 5 years old or 50 ?

Looney tunes

Torquemada

I think one of the differences in that story are the licensing and lessons and cost etc. involved in being alowed to drive a truck. Saying that, people who run down civilians are not likely to have done any kind of legal lessons or have a license. - Thieving a truck and then going out and killing someone is much harder to do and much rarer than there being a situation where one morning a seemingly sane and licensed truck driver wakes up and decides to run down some people.

It's such as touchy and tough area to find any middle ground on - is there a middle ground on this??

Torquemada

Now you're getting into the psychology of it all and that is scary stuff. My wife is a therapist and some of the stories I hear (whilst maintaining HIPPA compliance) are nasty as f@ck.

Then again, maybe this guy did do it as a political or religious statement. I don't know.

Either way, he really wanted to make a statement as he went out. Weirdly, he tried to get away, though, so maybe he didn't just want to die?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It was obviously a grudge shooting, or had a very major grudge element to it. His ex-mother-in-law was a regular at the church, and her mother was among the victims. Would this same guy have ever gone to the lenghts of seeking them out in the street and trying to run them over in his truck? I'd bet a month's pay-cheque against it. Far harder to find the right opportunity to do it, far less certainty of success if/when opportunity found, far harder to do the deed and then get away, far more time required to plan the deed and therefore reflect on it beforehand, etc, etc.

My "solution" here, knowing there are already so many guns in circulation in the US, would be for the authorities to immediately search anyone convicted of a violent offence for guns and confiscate them (if I'm not mistaken, the current background check system will only stop a convicted felon from buying new weapons after conviction, it doesn't give powers to seize anything they held previously).

Torquemada

Yeah, agreed on your first paragraph and I heard the same thing regarding the ex-mother-in-law but I like to stay safe and say that I just can't assume to know what the motivation was - of course, shooting people when they are corralled in a church is like fish in a barrel - it is a logical, if completely twisted, way of planning to get some retribution on people singularly and en masse.
It's very easy to shoot up a building filled with people, providing you are messed up enough in the head.

I also agree that the solution you have could have some effect on the number of shootings carried out by bad guys but it won't stop types like the Las Vegas shooter. Also, the average tax payer would lose the plot if you told them of the cost implications assigned to what would literally be touted as the government taking away peoples guns. I can hear it now. There is no one clear answer, without a change in the psychology of the people and a change in how patriots feel.

Maybe chipping away at these things is the only answer though - agin I can hear some people saying "look at them snowflake liberals, chipping away at our freedoms"

Martin2005

I entirely agree with your first 2 paragraphs. Then you went all wack-a-doodle on me.

I presume you're trying to insinuate that this was some kind of lefty liberal murder, but as ever, you never actually say what you mean.

domino46

im not against guns and coming from a army family iv had my fair share of playing with them

even as a none American I can see there constitution is built on being able to protect yourself and your property (even if it is very outdated) so this would be very hard to try and take away from them,, but this can be done with a hand held revolver inside your own home for protection , I see no point in any normal citizen having any access to automatic weapons and the stuff thats currently available to everyday people ,, this wouldn't stop anyone using a gun to kill people but it would limit the mass killings as automatic weapons can kill lots and lots of people in seconds , a revolver would be a lot harder to use for a mass killing and would be ample home protection in my view

just my 2p worth

mrtheedge2u2

I am not worried at all.......nothing stops a speeding bullet faster than a prayer! The USA have this one covered!

It is getting to the point now where they are simply reaping what they sow.

Torquemada

yeah, a ton of these guns are not really made for much other than slaying people. Full auto's are not legal here unless you have some kind of special license. The fact does remain that more people are killed by handguns than anything. Sure, you can't kill as many people with a 6 shooter pistol for example but you can still fit a lot of rounds in a semi auto pistol, especially with extended mags and it takes very little time to switch in new mags. The majority of gun owners have semi auto pistols.

There is difficulty with the home protection idea too. Yes, it would be nice to meet any home invader whilst you were holding a fully loaded sig with laser sights and a clear path to unleash hell on them but therein is a big safety issue - do you sleep with your pistol under your pillow or in your bedside table, leaving it open to children to come and accidentally shoot you or themselves? Do you leave your pistols in your safe? If your pistol is in a safe and a home invader breaks in, do you ask them to wait whilst you go and fetch your pistol?

Most people I know, here, own at least one gun. One of my pals has a Concealed Carry License and he's usually carrying. Am I worried that they have a gun? Nope. Do I feel safer because they have guns? Nope. Am I worried that mentally ill, poor and desperate, angry and alone, PTSD'd up to eyeballs types can be sitting in their car next to you on the highway ready to gun you down if you cut them off in traffic? Hell yes!!

domino46

yeah we are on more or less the same page when it comes to these things ,, to be honest if I lived in the states I would prob own at least one gun aswell (revolver type) as without it I would feel very defenceless against the rest of the country lol,, I would prob even go as far as a concealed licence so I could have one on me at all times ,, here in the uk I'm happy to sleep with a 3ft machete under my bed as I feel thats all thats needed in my home , anywhere else its toe to toe and hope for the best lol

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

I think the tin foil brigade are claiming ‘multiple shooters’ in the case of the Las Vegas shooting. I’m not one for conspiracies etc. 9/11 wasn’t an inside job, Man did land on the moon and Elvis is dead.

However these are 2 clear targets. Pre planned and with motive for whatever reason. Within hours of the Manchester bombing it was known ‘why’ it had been carried out. As with most mass killings.

Torquemada

Ever heard of the term 'correlation does not equal causation'? Because that seems to be the route you are travelling and seems to be behind your general way of thinking.

Just come out and say it. What do you think the issue or hidden motive or connection is here, then?

Torquemada

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/0...acebook.com%2F

This is interesting. Apparently mental health care is no worse here in comparison to other places in the world (hard to believe but I guess it varies a lot from state to state.

TL : DR apparently it's just the massive abundance of guns and the attitude of entitlement to guns (rather than a respect and earning gun ownership) that really generates the frequency of shootings themselves.

Kind of obvious, I guess. Still leaves us with what a seemingly insurmountable challenge, where creating change is concerned.

Now, back to conspiracy theories....

Tidgy

road deaths in the US in 2012 - 33,782
Murders carried out by guns - 8,897

So if guns should be banned guess where all walking and carrying stuff cos road deaths are 5 times more.