Felix.

Its good to see the powers that be are on the side of the emergency services:



"Officers should drive in a way which is lawful and does not contravene the laws of dangerous or careless driving.

"Officers are advised not to undertake any manoeuvre which may well fall outside the standard of the careful and competent non-police driver."

It adds: “A typical response or pursuit drive is likely to involve the officer contravening traffic signs and or speed limits. A course of driving involving contravention of traffic signs and speed limits is very likely to fall within the definition of careless or dangerous driving.

“Officers are required by law to drive to the standard of the careful and competent driver. Not the careful and competent police driver, the careful and competent (non-police) driver. This is the standard police drivers will be held to.

“There are no legal exemptions from the offences of careless or dangerous driving. Any such drives are therefore likely to be unlawful, placing the driver at risk of prosecution and proceedings for gross misconduct.”



Wonder if any of the drivers who responded to the Westminster incident or the fire crews that attended the Grenfell incident will be looked at for going through a red light, or going over the speed limit?

Or is there now any justification in perusing or driving on blues & twos if it risks gross misconduct?

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Perhaps it's incumbent on us as concerned citizens not only to refuse to move over when blue lights are approaching but actively to block such vehicles to keep them within the law? That might end badly of course!

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Having been almost taken out on my motorbike by some A hole in a panda attending a bin fire and one of my school mates killed by an ambulance when I was about 8 yrs old, I think it's a little over due.

As we are constantly told "speeding kills" I don't see why that message shouldn't apply to the emergency services... at the end of the day they need to act responsibly too... and be held accountable for their actions.

Not sure what the current statistics are but a few years back, emergency services vehicles were responsible for more deaths than all the illegal drugs combined... which kind of puts things into perspective regards what society and the powers that be should be focusing their efforts on.

As usual I hold a slightly different view... awaits usual 'our hero's' bollocks from usual suspects.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I'm in two minds on this one. FAR, far to many chases shown on the "interceptor" series on TV show the police driving to be every bit as bad as the person being chased.
And the more of those scenes are shown on TV, the more youngsters will do it, especially given the non-deterrent sentences courts are still handing out.
One one show, one of the pursuit officers admitted that a chase was what he lived for......

And yet........would I want ambulances and fire tenders held up at red lights, taffic queues etc? No, of course not.

^Qwerty^

I'm staggered at that - I would have thought that illegal drugs killed 'x' thousand number of people a year.

Quick google:

Road Deaths in uk 2010: 1857
Drug Deaths in uk 2010: 2747

Doesn't sound right?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Quick google from me (ok it's Daily mail) reveals 12 crashes a day... and that's just the MET Police.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...led-years.html


My other quote was from quite a few years back when the figures for both were in the region of 1000, and Heroin being the main culprit on the drug side... of course Heroin use has increased significantly in the last 15/20yrs which is probably why there are more than two and a half times more drug related deaths.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I don't think it's worth the carnage it causes sometimes... for the sake of a Ł2k car 4/5 young kids died a few years back in Notts next to the National Ice stadium.... ok they may steal a car and drive like idiots for half an hour... wheel spinning in maccyd's car park etc... but add a Police car to that equation and the red mist decendes and all hell breaks lose.

A bit more info here... again mostly just the Police.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...e_vehicles.pdf

dpb

Where does it say no more blue lights ?

anyway 1/2 dozy ******* out there seem ignore or grudgingly accept too late ,

dpb

I thought police were advised to back off in a chase if deemed too dangerous

or is that just in the movies too

Felix.

Thats 6 deaths in 3 years. That's an average of 2 deaths per year in the Mets area. I would suggest drugs deaths are a lot higher

Felix.

So that's 17 deaths in 09/10 across all forces - a lot less than the previous year

I suspect that there were far more drug related deaths across all the force areas than 17

Felix.

In essence these are any response jobs - not just pursuits.

So domestics, assaults, burglaries, public order incidents, missing from homes, concerns for safety etc etc

Its basically saying that if we go through a red light on blues or go over the speed limit, it will be classed a careless/dangerous driving and may lead to gross misconduct.

So, do I just go to all emergencies now at 30mph in rush hour traffic and get there..... eventually?

Can I refuse to go to jobs on blues so I don't risk my job?

Will the public be happy at burglars and thieves making off with the loot knowing that as soon as they go through a red traffic light I won't be able to follow them.

Am I duty bound to pull over fire engines and ambulances on blue light runs if they drive through a red light?

dpb

Sounds bizarre possibility

lozgti1

Bring back life on Mars policing

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yes true and I did say it was some considerable time ago.

That said there were still 17000 crashes of some sort and 1400 people 09 and 1300 2010 had some sort of injury.

AND it's still 17 dead people that didn't make it home.

As for your other post... now you're just being silly... running a red light carries a risk... that risk needs to be weighed up against the call being responded to... my personal experience tells me that some officers are not as responsible as others and like to have a bit of a hoon about the place... judging by the 17000 crashes it would seem their skill levels don't quite match their enthusiasm.

tony de wonderful

I remember a few years ago near me a couple of police decided to hoon a confiscated Evo through a residential area and managed to roll it into a garden.

I think they just got a slap on the wrist which is a joke.

http://www.messengernewspapers.co.uk...n_Hale_garden/

Felix.

Which is the issue. What the protocol is now saying is that there is no justification for doing it. Any blue light run has been judged to be urgent, and just because you are classed as a 'police driver' you will not be protected. It will now been seen as careless/dangerous and hence potentially gross misconduct.

Yes, of course I will want to get to an urgent domestic incident as soon a possible to prevent people getting hurt, but is it fair to risk my job in doing so by going through a red light on route?

And yes, you will always have the odd ones who 'hoon' about but these will be few and far between and usually result in having their response authorisation pulled.

Wonder how many of those 17000 crashes were judged as the fault of police? I have had 5 in my 17 year career all of which have been the fault of the other car, 3 of which deliberately rammed me.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

This^^^^
And there was the copper some years ago in a Vectra who was clocked at well over 100mph. When questioned, he said he was learning his new car...and magistrates let him off.
Imagine their response had a member of the public tried that?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

To be fair, those are isolated incidents... In any segment of society there's always going to be a few idiots and the Police force is no exception... I've had the displeasure of having to deal with a fair few of the idiots... but I've also dealt with some very nice ones... and most, if you doff your cap and give them the respect they crave turn out to be ok ish.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

It is no different to the powers that be giving a soldier a gun and sending him to war then charging him with murder when he uses the tools he has been given to do his job.

Tidgy

When people start dying because ambulances are delayed they will realise what a **** up they have made.

Dingdongler

Interesting.

What would you guys do if the emergency services were on the blues and were right behind you at a redlight? Would you edge past it to allow them through?

Markyscoob

Absolutely yes.
And would stand up and fight (figuratively)in court if needed afterwards.

boomer

Wasn't the above taken from a letter sent by the Police Federation (the police "union", and NOT "the powers that be") to their members after having a hissy-fit because the IPCC is recommending instituting gross misconduct disciplinary proceedings against an officer accused of careless driving?

Kinda puts a different slant on things, don't ya think?

mb

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

Reassuring to know if you are single crewed, and either outnumbered or injured, your colleagues will be racing to your aid within the speed limit, and with due regard for every red light en-route.

lozgti1

World is PC mental. Police, ambulance, fire engines should be able to ignore every single rule in the book to save a life.

lozgti1

The world is bloody mental

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

And let's not worry how many they kill and maim while they're trying to save one.

It's like the guy chasing one sheep and loosing his flock.

All emergency service drivers need to be held accountable for their actions... just like any other segment of society... no one is above the law.

dpb

I never seen ambulance, or any other emergency service crash


Must led sheltered life

Felix.

I agree - but to suggest that every time we go through a red light on blues & twos you could be liable to careless driving and hence misconduct