Abortion
22 July 2015, 02:23 PM
#61
22 July 2015, 02:23 PM
#62
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You are now doing exactly what I predicted. On a practical level it would only be possible to act on definites.
Move it back in time and say that a foetus within the allowed timeframe was known to be deaf and blind, then I would abort. Quality of life and drain on resources being the reasons cited.
Move it back in time and say that a foetus within the allowed timeframe was known to be deaf and blind, then I would abort. Quality of life and drain on resources being the reasons cited.
22 July 2015, 02:25 PM
#63
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There are enough people on this planet already that in principle we could afford to be a little more selective regarding the newcomers.
As far as unborn children are concerned they neither know nor have anything to be deprived of. That comes later.
There are far too many irrelevant emotions surrounding the subject of abortion, and of course there's religion.
As far as unborn children are concerned they neither know nor have anything to be deprived of. That comes later.
There are far too many irrelevant emotions surrounding the subject of abortion, and of course there's religion.
22 July 2015, 02:29 PM
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Isn't Stephen Hawking's take on life (and the meaning of) somewhat at odds with yours?
22 July 2015, 02:37 PM
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That aside the choice is ultimately the parents as we're not in 1930's Germany or a 1970's Swedish mental hospital, although had your scenario existed I would have sanctioned an abortion request from Hawking's parents and we'd all be none the wiser as regards what he might have done.
There are plenty of others who might have been big achievers, or equally well might not.
22 July 2015, 02:38 PM
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https://www.scoobynet.com/849424-ste...l#post10695287
22 July 2015, 02:54 PM
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There's always one ffs.
Lets look at this scenario. Your wife is gang raped at knifepoint by 12 disgusting scum. They force you to watch. She gets pregnant as a direct result but mother and baby are physically fit and well.
Do you and your wife keep the baby (which will for ever be a direct reminder of what happened because a "life has been created"?
22 July 2015, 02:55 PM
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I had to look Helen Keller up. Ironically you've made the same mistake twice, as she lost her hearing and sight at 19 months after an illness and was in fact born healthy.
That aside the choice is ultimately the parents as we're not in 1930's Germany or a 1970's Swedish mental hospital, although had your scenario existed I would have sanctioned an abortion request from Hawking's parents and we'd all be none the wiser as regards what he might have done.
There are plenty of others who might have been big achievers, or equally well might not.
That aside the choice is ultimately the parents as we're not in 1930's Germany or a 1970's Swedish mental hospital, although had your scenario existed I would have sanctioned an abortion request from Hawking's parents and we'd all be none the wiser as regards what he might have done.
There are plenty of others who might have been big achievers, or equally well might not.
Last edited by JTaylor; 22 July 2015 at 03:00 PM.
22 July 2015, 02:56 PM
#73
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Ok for very special reasons including health reasons that are 100% proven, not just the woman can't be arsed using contraception and then two witch doctors signs it ok over mental health issues! Approx 200,000 abortions per year in the UK at the moment,, this is totally unacceptable behaviour!
22 July 2015, 03:06 PM
#74
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Don't let the physical resemblance confuse you. At that point, in the womb, its a developing collection of cells with no sense of awareness or existence (as I've said before)
Whilst foetuses at that age and younger born prematurely have survived, they can only survive with significant medical intervention.
Whilst foetuses at that age and younger born prematurely have survived, they can only survive with significant medical intervention.
Last edited by ALi-B; 14 February 2016 at 09:41 AM. Reason: JTaylor quote removed due to complaints
22 July 2015, 03:08 PM
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Don't let the physical resemblance confuse you. At that point, in the womb, its a developing collection of cells with no sense of awareness or existence (as I've said before)
Whilst foetuses at that age and younger born prematurely have survived, they can only survive with significant medical intervention.
Whilst foetuses at that age and younger born prematurely have survived, they can only survive with significant medical intervention.
22 July 2015, 03:08 PM
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22 July 2015, 03:11 PM
#77
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Ok for very special reasons including health reasons that are 100% proven, not just the woman can't be arsed using contraception and then two witch doctors signs it ok over mental health issues! Approx 200,000 abortions per year in the UK at the moment,, this is totally unacceptable behaviour!
I'm quite sure that there are not 200,000 abortions per year just because the woman can't be arsed using contraception.
Instead of simply banging on about it being unacceptable, why don't you explain why you think it is unacceptable?
22 July 2015, 03:16 PM
#78
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22 July 2015, 03:21 PM
#79
Ok for very special reasons including health reasons that are 100% proven, not just the woman can't be arsed using contraception and then two witch doctors signs it ok over mental health issues! Approx 200,000 abortions per year in the UK at the moment,, this is totally unacceptable behaviour!
22 July 2015, 03:36 PM
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What actually made you re address your view on this JT? Pictures on the internet?
22 July 2015, 03:36 PM
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Ok for very special reasons including health reasons that are 100% proven, not just the woman can't be arsed using contraception and then two witch doctors signs it ok over mental health issues! Approx 200,000 abortions per year in the UK at the moment,, this is totally unacceptable behaviour!
22 July 2015, 03:46 PM
#82
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There's always one ffs.
Lets look at this scenario. Your wife is gang raped at knifepoint by 12 disgusting scum. They force you to watch. She gets pregnant as a direct result but mother and baby are physically fit and well.
Do you and your wife keep the baby (which will for ever be a direct reminder of what happened because a "life has been created"?
Lets look at this scenario. Your wife is gang raped at knifepoint by 12 disgusting scum. They force you to watch. She gets pregnant as a direct result but mother and baby are physically fit and well.
Do you and your wife keep the baby (which will for ever be a direct reminder of what happened because a "life has been created"?
It's easy to pick an extreme example like that because most reasonable people would agree with you. However 99% of abortions in this country will not be due to gang rape.
We have, as JB points out and I can confirm, abortion on demand in this country. Lets discuss the real everyday situation, not the outliers.
22 July 2015, 04:24 PM
#83
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I think it is fare to say that there are no winners in this argument
any absolutist view, whether it is Abortion on demand on one hand, and the life is life from the moment of conception, on the other
is "wrong" imo
Ultimately I am pro-choice, but not an unqualified pro choice,
ironically most pro lifers in the US are pro death penalty to
any absolutist view, whether it is Abortion on demand on one hand, and the life is life from the moment of conception, on the other
is "wrong" imo
Ultimately I am pro-choice, but not an unqualified pro choice,
ironically most pro lifers in the US are pro death penalty to
23 July 2015, 12:16 AM
#84
It seems to me, reading some posts here, and just more generally what I've heard over the years, that the majority of responsibility is placed on the female. Assuming a lot of abortions are the result of lack of contraception as opposed to failure of contraception, or extreme cases (i.e. rapes etc), then how about men are more insistent on using condoms, if the woman isn't on the pill or whatever? I hear over time of men saying they don't like using condoms, well, news flash, not all women like the various forms of birth control available to them. Yet it seems when it all goes wrong, and the woman ends up pregnant, it is largely her fault, and she then gets demonised by some, for opting to abort.
I stand by what I said earlier, that ideally abortions should not be used as a form of contraception basically, but perhaps more needs to be done from a young age to encourage joint responsibility when it comes to protection, and a responsible attitude towards sex. I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist, but I think it's a tad unfair that it seems the lying share of blame is placed on women in these circumstances, just because she is the 'host' if you like.
23 July 2015, 07:18 AM
#85
This is not me having a go at blokes, but I do wonder if the number of unwanted pregnancies would go down, if more people held that view.
It seems to me, reading some posts here, and just more generally what I've heard over the years, that the majority of responsibility is placed on the female. Assuming a lot of abortions are the result of lack of contraception as opposed to failure of contraception, or extreme cases (i.e. rapes etc), then how about men are more insistent on using condoms, if the woman isn't on the pill or whatever? I hear over time of men saying they don't like using condoms, well, news flash, not all women like the various forms of birth control available to them. Yet it seems when it all goes wrong, and the woman ends up pregnant, it is largely her fault, and she then gets demonised by some, for opting to abort.
I stand by what I said earlier, that ideally abortions should not be used as a form of contraception basically, but perhaps more needs to be done from a young age to encourage joint responsibility when it comes to protection, and a responsible attitude towards sex. I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist, but I think it's a tad unfair that it seems the lying share of blame is placed on women in these circumstances, just because she is the 'host' if you like.
It seems to me, reading some posts here, and just more generally what I've heard over the years, that the majority of responsibility is placed on the female. Assuming a lot of abortions are the result of lack of contraception as opposed to failure of contraception, or extreme cases (i.e. rapes etc), then how about men are more insistent on using condoms, if the woman isn't on the pill or whatever? I hear over time of men saying they don't like using condoms, well, news flash, not all women like the various forms of birth control available to them. Yet it seems when it all goes wrong, and the woman ends up pregnant, it is largely her fault, and she then gets demonised by some, for opting to abort.
I stand by what I said earlier, that ideally abortions should not be used as a form of contraception basically, but perhaps more needs to be done from a young age to encourage joint responsibility when it comes to protection, and a responsible attitude towards sex. I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist, but I think it's a tad unfair that it seems the lying share of blame is placed on women in these circumstances, just because she is the 'host' if you like.
23 July 2015, 09:04 AM
#86
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giving women power of their own body is a very good way of addressing lack of education and poverty, especially in Africa
and along side this making men more accountable
what is interesting, is that to a lot of women in Africa - pregnancy is not an addendum to their life, it is 100% part of it
African women often become pregnant by the age of 15 and are continually in a state of pregnancy or childbirth until they reach the menopause
and along side this making men more accountable
what is interesting, is that to a lot of women in Africa - pregnancy is not an addendum to their life, it is 100% part of it
African women often become pregnant by the age of 15 and are continually in a state of pregnancy or childbirth until they reach the menopause
23 July 2015, 09:44 AM
#87
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It's easy to pick an extreme example like that because most reasonable people would agree with you. However 99% of abortions in this country will not be due to gang rape.
We have, as JB points out and I can confirm, abortion on demand in this country. Lets discuss the real everyday situation, not the outliers.
We have, as JB points out and I can confirm, abortion on demand in this country. Lets discuss the real everyday situation, not the outliers.
Absolutely Deep, but sometimes you need to roll out the extreme examples to question sweeping generalisations.
23 July 2015, 09:47 AM
#88
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This is not me having a go at blokes, but I do wonder if the number of unwanted pregnancies would go down, if more people held that view.
It seems to me, reading some posts here, and just more generally what I've heard over the years, that the majority of responsibility is placed on the female. Assuming a lot of abortions are the result of lack of contraception as opposed to failure of contraception, or extreme cases (i.e. rapes etc), then how about men are more insistent on using condoms, if the woman isn't on the pill or whatever? I hear over time of men saying they don't like using condoms, well, news flash, not all women like the various forms of birth control available to them. Yet it seems when it all goes wrong, and the woman ends up pregnant, it is largely her fault, and she then gets demonised by some, for opting to abort.
I stand by what I said earlier, that ideally abortions should not be used as a form of contraception basically, but perhaps more needs to be done from a young age to encourage joint responsibility when it comes to protection, and a responsible attitude towards sex. I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist, but I think it's a tad unfair that it seems the lying share of blame is placed on women in these circumstances, just because she is the 'host' if you like.
It seems to me, reading some posts here, and just more generally what I've heard over the years, that the majority of responsibility is placed on the female. Assuming a lot of abortions are the result of lack of contraception as opposed to failure of contraception, or extreme cases (i.e. rapes etc), then how about men are more insistent on using condoms, if the woman isn't on the pill or whatever? I hear over time of men saying they don't like using condoms, well, news flash, not all women like the various forms of birth control available to them. Yet it seems when it all goes wrong, and the woman ends up pregnant, it is largely her fault, and she then gets demonised by some, for opting to abort.
I stand by what I said earlier, that ideally abortions should not be used as a form of contraception basically, but perhaps more needs to be done from a young age to encourage joint responsibility when it comes to protection, and a responsible attitude towards sex. I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist, but I think it's a tad unfair that it seems the lying share of blame is placed on women in these circumstances, just because she is the 'host' if you like.
Agree 100% Lisa. Its as much the mans fault as the woman's, and if there is a need to abort it should be very much a joint responsibility. Its more than a tad unfair - its a disgrace.
23 July 2015, 11:35 AM
#89
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Don't let the physical resemblance confuse you. At that point, in the womb, its a developing collection of cells with no sense of awareness or existence (as I've said before)
Whilst foetuses at that age and younger born prematurely have survived, they can only survive with significant medical intervention.
Whilst foetuses at that age and younger born prematurely have survived, they can only survive with significant medical intervention.
Sadly, we also experienced those for whom the fight was too much, but I'm left with no doubt in my mind that at 24 weeks they are very much viable, very much alive, very much a baby in the truest sense.
23 July 2015, 11:52 AM
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Having spent 7 months in a NICU recently, I've seen babies born at 24 weeks. One couple that we got to know quite well now have their baby at home who is doing very well. Yes, they needed a lot of major medical intervention and had lots of subsequent issues, but those babies were very much more than a collection of developing cells. They were babies, human beings; strong enough to fight and continue their lives.
Sadly, we also experienced those for whom the fight was too much, but I'm left with no doubt in my mind that at 24 weeks they are very much viable, very much alive, very much a baby in the truest sense.
Sadly, we also experienced those for whom the fight was too much, but I'm left with no doubt in my mind that at 24 weeks they are very much viable, very much alive, very much a baby in the truest sense.