Hopper

Hi folks, I'm a new member and hope you won't feel it's a cheek to hit you with a problem for my first post.
I have an '04 WRX PPP with 36k miles that I have owned from new.
Today, on start up after a 50 mile drive it developed a faint ticking sound at about 2,800 revs which seemed to be most apparent on a constant light throttle. When I took my foot off the gas the noise disappeared.
On my way home the noise got worse and when I pulled off the motorway to listen it was a very definite knock. The noise is not there at tickover, but is there as soon as you rev it and increases with the revs.
I called the AA and they agreed it sounded expensive "metal to metal" were his words.
I had the thing trailered home.
The thing is, I had the 5-year service done only last week and this was the car's first long(ish) run since. I had the cambelts changed as part of the service.
I asked the dealer if there was any wear on the tensioners and was told that they looked fine and were not changed.
Could it just be coincidence? Or do you think the noise and the fact that the cambelts were changed could be connected.
Have any of you had a similar experience or have any idea what the noise could be. It has most certainly got worse and I have no intention of trying to start it again before it gets back to the dealer, but I would be grateful for any information you could give before I start pointing the finger at them.
Thanks in anticipation . . .

welsh scoob

iTrader: (4)

Now i know its not the same vehicle but my van had a new engine in august, and about 3 weeks ago leaving helston in truro to come home to cardiff, my van developed a slight noise on load, i pulled over heard nothing, carried on my journey it then got louder, i pulled over again, it wasnt there on tik over but underload it sounded like there was a bag of bolts in the cylinder head rattling around, i was towed bck to cardiff, engine was dead, its had to have another engine, it was all todo with the top end knocking. a loose cam they said which had caused further damage.

maybe 1 of ur cam locators has broke and the cam is moving around.

i was talking to dave @ interpro last week they have a wrx with a broken cam locator, sounds like urs could be similar.

but i am no mechanic, its only a suggestion, maybe a phone call to martin @aj's in plymouth or a dave @ api. or even dave or simon @ interpro.

hope this helps.

or possible some1 else on herse has had a similar problem

Hopper

Welsh Scoob, thanks for the interest mate. Both the AA patrolmen mentioned camshafts as being the possible cause.
The reason I posted here is to find out if anyone had heard of a similar problem.
If it is cam locators or similar it would seem to fit in with the fact that the noise has got dramatically worse pretty quickly.
I am going to have a search of the site now to see if there is any other mention of the problem.
Any more info or ideas would be welcome.
Many thanks

gazzo451

hi, once i had a ford cougar v6 with an induction kit on and one day i put an aftermarket exhaust on.. was a hot day and after fitting the exhaust i thought id take it out for spin. started giving it a bit of grief up the motorway then started hereing screeching an shudder noises.. so kept on driving an headed back home.. by the time i got home there was a constant clicking noise an loss of power. turned out the bottom end bearings had worn out and had to be replaced. at the time the car was under warranty but they decided not to cover it and said that the engine needed to be replaced as would cost to much to stip the engine and replace bearings as the piston had touched the cams with being loose and damaged them also.

have ya turned up boost on the car without adjusting fueling/ignition? when was the last time ya changed ya oil? myt be good idea investin in bit of oil coolin or forged internals maby?

Splitpin

Was the noise specific to one or other of the cylinder heads? It would be unusual to say the least for the cam cap bolts on one of these to fail spontaneously.

While it could be a complete coincidence, the fact that your car underwent an oil change the week prior to this problem presenting is unfortunately somewhat familiar. The theory is that the few seconds of oil starvation suffered as the oil pickup, pump, filter and galleries reprime can, with the engine running and experiencing full combustion forces, allow some metal to metal contact, beginning a process of bearing failure which will become critical a short (sometimes very short) time later.

This is about as controversial as global warming round these parts, but the reality is that many Subaru specialists- and owners - take some simple precautions to prevent it when changing oil. Some main dealers do it too, but others don't, using the excuse that it isn't prescribed in their technical manuals. If you search for "oil change" you'll no doubt find some more detail.

Obviously without knowing yet whether you've suffered bearing failure it's impossible to know whether this applies, but it's something to be aware of.

Hopper

Not possible to say where the noise was coming from I'm afraid. It was pretty loud and to be honest I was uncomfortable about running it at all. The AA men seemed to think it was serious though. With all the paraphernalia over the engine it is going to be difficult to tell I think. Not like the old days when you could stick a screwdriver to the head and put your ear to it.
The first thing he did was to check the oil, so I know there was some there, but whether or not it was run without being primed at the service I can't say.
You would like to think a main dealer would know how to do it, but possibly not it seems. I will have a read of 'oil change' and bearing failure threads so as I am kept informed.
The reason I was suspicious of the cam/cambelt area is because of previous experience with the same dealer.
The only other time I had to call out the AA was a few days after they last got their hands on it. I had them fit a new clutch after I cooked it at the 'ring and discovered that they had neglected to tighten the bolts securing the centre section of the propshaft.
Hence my thoughts immediately jumped to the cambelt tensioner area.
I was half-hoping that it was a recognised thing or that I could blame it on the dealer again.
We'll have to see . . . I will keep you posted.

Splitpin

Some main dealers will go the extra yard. Others just stick to what the service book says without being specifically aware there are other steps that can be taken. Others will stick to what the service book says knowing that they're likely to get paid for fixing goosed engines - either by IM or by the owner.

The "engine failure shortly after oil change" thing comes up here time and time again. Whether you'll be able to attach any "blame" to the dealer, if this does turn out to be the explanation, is a separate question though. They will no doubt tell you that they change the oil to the letter of the service book.

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

as above incorrect oil change proberly done by a apprentice sick off keep hearing engines going **** up after oil change ask them the oil changing procedure and did they unplug cam sensor

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Hopper, Sad to say it'll be a big end failure and it is a major rebuild looking at you here.

Api can advise & help you if you wish.

Give me a call on Monday on 01926 614333 and l'll talk yout hrough options and costs.

Good Luck no matter what.

David APi

01926 614333

Hopper

David, I can't believe it. Really?
If it is true it has put me off for life. This is the second Impreza I have had and never had any problems with either. The thing has done just 36k and been serviced on the button by Subaru dealers since new. If this is what I can expect I will sell the thing and buy a bloody diesel or something.
Do you think it can be related to the recent service as Splitpin suggests?
If so, surely there must be some comeback as a car of this description should not need a major rebuild surely.
Thanks for your comments, but it has filled me with dread.
I was planning to have the thing transported back to the dealers in the morning. Do you think I should go ahead with this? I feel they should be given the opportunity to check the car, but at the same time worry about how honest they will be if they find they are at fault.
Then again, what choice do I have?
I will call you in the morning and thanks again for the response.

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

one word oil change procedure seen it sooo many times

Splitpin

It's not certain until it's been diagnosed, but I've had that feeling since reading your first post unfortunately. The mention of the oil change is an instant red flag.

It's most unfortunate that Subaru in Japan and/or International Motors here haven't mandated their dealers to prime the oil system properly prior to restarting, as the extra work adds no more than four minutes to the overall length of a service. However, without examining your engine we are all just speculating at this point, both to the exact nature of the noise, and any causal process. It could be completely unrelated to the oil change - for example an oil pressure relief valve failure or even a sensor fault causing detonation and hammering the bearing to death. The only way to know is to strip the engine and examine it.

It shouldn't, and most don't (there are Imprezas around running very, very big mileages with big power hikes, with unerring reliability). You have been unlucky - and this experience shouldn't be enough to put you off the brand, although it might turn out to be enough to put you off this dealer.

Let them listen to it, by all means - and if they agree that it is a bearing failure you could ask the question about how they plan to remedy the situation, given that the proximity to last week's service has you worried that the failure might have been caused by something they did or didn't do, and if you don't like the answer, consider having it remedied elsewhere.

Have a word with David beforehand too - as at least then you'll be aware of your options before going to see them.

Do you have any warranty on the car btw?

Hopper

Splitpin,
I have no warranty. I considered the extended option but with the relatively low mileage I do, rejected the idea.
I will have the car taken back tomorrow and will go over there on my bike to try and be there when they start it.
Unfortunately it is quite some way from where I live as I seem to be in a bit of a black hole where Subaru dealers are concerned.
I think I need to stick to the point that the car was fine 200 miles ago and what have they done to change that.
I will keep the knowledge about the oil change up my sleeve until the fault is diagnosed (or otherwise).
I will call David in the morning before doing anything else.
I really appreciate all the advice I have received from you all today. It is exactly what I hoped for (if not the exact nature of the information !!).
I ride a Triumph and know from the experience of using their site that other owners views are worth listening to.
I will let you know what happens.
Cheers for now.

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

any news

Hopper

Hi Gents,

Thanks for your interest. My worst fears and the predictions of Dave, Splitpin and Nick proved correct. It is a new crank and mains.

As Dave invited me to call, I did, and his experience and willingness to share it was invaluable.

What a bummer!

He also said that Subaru and the dealer would not offer anything but condolences. He was pretty much right there too.

I rang Subaru Customer care and whilst the guy was sympathetic and agreed that I could have done no more than stick with their service agents from day one, stressed that as the car was two years out of warranty they would offer no more help.

Since the problem happened to my car I have found that I am in no way alone in experiencing it.

The technician at the dealer claimed he had "done hundreds of them".

I rang a mate who has his own garage and he told me of his next door neighbour who bought an '04 car with about 40k miles on it and within two months needed a new crank.

Another technician at the service centre said he had spoken to his opposite number at a Subaru dealer in Chelmsford who had FOUR cars there waiting for the same repair.

And get this, one of them was an '09 plater with just TWO thousand miles on the clock. So they obviously haven't learned any lessons.

Suddenly they are coming out of the woodwork.

The technician - unprompted by me - claimed that they always primed the oil filter to brimming with oil prior to fitment. I suggested it was a design fault and he would not disagree with me.

What can you say?

S**t happens?

I am going to write to Subaru. Not because I believe for a second that it will do me any good, but because the more people who have faced this and put pen to paper, the more chance we have of being able to buy a car that we can have faith in in the future.

Right now, I am looking at a pretty huge bill for simply doing what the company advises. And my feelings for the brand will forever now be tainted by the experience and the notion that it can all happen again and again seemingly at any time.

And that is the rub. It is like a timebomb ticking away (no pun intended) which can suddenly flare up and bite you.

How this never came up with the JD Power survey I will never know.

I feel now like I am the owner of the Lancia Beta of the noughties.

Dave, I will be in touch, and thanks again to you all.

Splitpin

Never the sort of circumstances in which one wishes to be proved right. Commiserations.

Yep, as above, did suggest this would be the case, unfortunately.

He no doubt will have. The unfortunate reality is that this doesn't catch all engines out all the time.

There's nothing sudden about this. This phenomenon has been known about for years, as has the countermeasure. The dull part is that, as above, International Motors and/or FHI haven't formally instigated a process to remedy it (which could be technological, or a simple update bulletin to the service manuals).

That's only half the job. The other part is unplugging the crankshaft position sensor (which will prevent the engine sparking or fuelling) and turning it over on the starter motor for 20-30 seconds to allow oil flow and pressure to re-establish prior to starting - and exposure to full combustion forces.

To be brutally honest the technician probably wouldn't have the knowledge to debate you on that point one way or the other, and in any case would likely have thought it best to keep his lip buttoned in the face of a customer dealing with the consequences of damage like this!

I wouldn't say it's a design fault, as such, more a technical consideration that should by now have been addressed, either via a mandatory oilservice procedural change or a simple technological one - for example by linking an oil pressure sensor to the ECU and interlocking it so that firing is only permitted when pressure is established above a preset "safe" level.

Not that any of this helps you of course. Best of luck with the letter to IM - keep us in touch with how both it, and the repairs to your engine, go.

Hopper

Splitpin,
Thanks for the extra information. I am thinking that if at all possible I would like to do the oil and filter change myself in future if I decide to keep the car.
I would then get a (different) dealer to do the rest of the stuff.
Is this crankshaft position sensor unplugging a job that I could take on?
And while we are about it, is there anything else I could do whilst thereabouts which could ensure this doesn't happen again?
I have normal mechanical competence i.e. I can undo a drain plug and prime and replace an oil filter provided I can see the beast!

Splitpin

Many go that route - at least then you're the director of your own destiny.

Hell yes, that's one of the annoying things about dealers not doing it, it's as simple as. Next time you're in front of your car, have a peek under the alternator and you'll see the sensor (and its plug) immediately behind the belt cover. Press down on the locking tab and pull the plug off. It's that simple.

As far as sensible precautions go you already know pretty much all there is. Pre-fill the new filter with oil prior to fitting, unplug the crank sensor and turn it over on the starter for 20 or so seconds, or until the oil pressure light goes out + 10 seconds, whichever's the longer. Plug the crank sensor back in and start it. On a newage you'll probably get a check engine light which will go out by itself after three (or is it six?) successful starts.

About the only other measure is taking the plugs out - which is easy enough if you're doing the oil change as part of a service, altho shouldn't be necessary.

Hopper

Thanks for that, I will print this information out and keep it with the service record etc.
Like you say, it seems so easy and if it stops this happening it is a no-brainer why the service guys are not instructed to use this procedure.
I will keep you posted on developments and any response from Subaru.
Thanks again.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Hopper, API supplies 4 pages of information and tips to customers that are collecting their cars after an engine rebuild. One of them is an A4 page purely relating to oil change procedure. Don't bother printing anything on here let me have an address and l'll mail you one. The rest is to do with advisory fuels and other such simple things to get the best out of the car and the engine. Most people find something of interest that they didn't know, or understand.

We, along with Roger Clark Motorsport and Cosworth [ us first - notice that ? ] modify the oil pumps to be a better piece of kit and take away the chance of failure of the pressure relief valve. The pump, as made by Fuji Heavy industries, is a good overall design and is more than capable of providing the right amount of oil, at the right pressure, for a Subaru engine way up into high power levels.

The problem is that it is assembled in a mass production facility and no matching of parts takes place on such an important component. We ' blueprint ' them for want of a better description and once done have never been known to fail [ ours, l have no info on RCM or Cosworth - but I fully expect theirs to be bulletproof too. ]

David APi

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

feel for you mate had a engine let go on a cossieso i know how you feel just before christmas aswell mine due a oil change right now and not relishing the thought off it havin one now i will be asking them to do the correct procedure and ill watch them do it **** subaru i wont be buying another

Hopper

NIck, thanks mate. You would do well to watch them do the oil change and make sure they unplug the crankshaft position sensor too. The information is all here in this thread.
I have spoken with the service manager at the dealers today and amazingly he seemed to know nothing of that part.
Considering how many cars have been affected it's scary that this level of apparent ignorance is still out there.
But as David at API said, there are an awful lot of high mileage highly tuned cars that have never experienced the problem, so provided we are all vigilant and careful when or who we get to change the oil, we should be okay.
I have written to Subaru UK today to ask some questions.
I will let you know when I get a response.
I will make do with my motorbike for a while, and let API sort mine.
Thanks for the sympathy and you have a good Christmas mate.

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

you too

handsome rob

Hi all, i have always primed the filter and have recently started to unplug the sensor (thanks to sn ) my Q is this , upon expaining this to my mech ,who no longer changes the oil at service time, he was very sceptical saying when you stand your car at night all the oil drains back to the sump anyway (exept filter) so when you drain the oil for a few mins for a service there is still oil round the bearings so it should make no difference ,now dont get me wrong doing the extra bits is a no brainer and i trust sn own personal experences, but out of curiosity can someone explain to me why he is wrong ? Cheers Rob.

just123

iTrader: (1)

This must be a way of easy moneymaking for the dealers, what is the point of using dealers and paying through the nose when this happens a lot i would'nt put saboutage past any dealer, rip of britain makes it easy for them to get away with it
I remember when i bought my MY03 WRX Brand new dutch car UK spec after its first service by my local subaru dealer i noticed it was down on power and heavy on juice, i remember all the snide remarks from the dealer about me buying through a dutch dealer

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Oh dear; and you let this guy loose on your car ?? Of course it doesn't drain back down. The pick up pipe is immersed in oil and like any pipe [ imagine a straw in a drink ] if you just leave the straw in the drink does the straw empty? Of course not, it's contents are held in place a by a force called gravity.....and atmospheric pressure.

The only time the pick up pipe is empty is when you drain the oil out then the pick up pipe will empty too. BUT as soon as you add oil the pick up pipe will fill to the height of the oil and all you have to do is purge the air above the level through the pump.

Pressure in the bearing system will slowly reduce but oil remains around the galleries, just not pressurised. So disconnecting the cam angle or crank angle sensor allows the system to self bleed and once pressure is established off you go again.

Take your car somewhere else - your guy sounds dangerous.

David APi

handsome rob

Thanks for the tech reply David, that makes perfect sense to me now ,
tbo i've only let em do mot's while i wait and a small intrim no oil change (did that myself)for the garage stamp since joining sn ,cheers Rob.

STI Mav

David - Any chance of a copy of the documentation you provide. I would be very keen to have a read through given that my STI Impreza is currently having it's head gasket replaced.......

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Let me have a proper email address by pm and l'll wizz a copy off to you.

What year is that STi? If you just do head gaskets there is every chance it will blow the crank in the next month or so. If a head gasket job comes to APi on an older car we insist that the block is split and as a minimum checked for crank bearing wear. I know 'Clinic do the same, I cannot speak for others.

I don't need a complaint about; ' you did the head gaskets - it must be your fault that the crank has failed now ' ......... ]

David

STI Mav

Very much appreciated - thanks David. YHPM