bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

It's very confusing crap coilovers to good coilovers and then comparing to a stockish set up.
And osset I've heard that them miester r are better than standard subaru shock set up, very compliant, but I guess you'll find that out.
And 2pot, if your peddling your set ups then I think you should start paying AA subs, no?

tom-r33

iTrader: (2)

i thought his comments were a bit off the mark, makes sense now

tom-r33

iTrader: (2)

am i the only one that thinks all the coilovers are the same, just re-branded and different colours???

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Definitely not. You will get a few that are like that but you can't possibly say that about KW, blistiens, ohlins, exetc, nitron etc etc

johnlogie

iTrader: (4)

I've got to agree with Busta here. After having BC's for about 6 years , replacing shock cartridges after 4 years for them to fail again after a year. Broken springs as well. Been on the KW's for just over a year now. Better ride on the road and better on the track. Still look like brand new!

2pot

iTrader: (3)

Thought you wanted a discussion? Did you miss my post?
"If I was on track enough, I'd use high quality coilovers.
But, the damping curves don't accommodate low spring rates, suitable for UK roads.
Coilovers + big bars, on the road, will turn your car into a mobile chicane. The ride frequency and ride quality will be junk - no such thing as a smooth road, the damper is in constant movement."

You seem to be advocating using coilovers + big bars on a road car?
Discuss.

tom-r33

iTrader: (2)

obviously not ALL coilovers, just the ones mentioned in the OP

tom-r33

iTrader: (2)

I did, but an un biased one talking about technical things like the effect of roll centres with height changes, camber angles under hard cornering, weight transfer and the like, not opinionated comments like 'ride quality will be junk' and 'Coilovers + big bars, on the road, will turn your car into a mobile chicane'

yes, coilies and thicker bars work better on roads IMO. However it does depend on what type and what setup, as they are easy to get wrong and create a horribly handling car. Rallied and raced on roads, wouldnt dream of going into corners or leaving braking as late as i do without them, weight transfer using stock stuff is quite scary, unweighting inside wheels loosing traction when you want to nail the throttle but inside wheel spins up, back end squats under power and creates a lot of understeer on exit etc etc. Frankly the only time i'd want stock suspension is if i accidentally left the road and went through a field

2pot

iTrader: (3)

These are the bollox. My mate says his car feels planted and now corners on rails

BrownPantsRacing

iTrader: (6)

I've owned many cars with different lowered strut combinations and different coilover combinations for mainly road use throughout the years. I can see both sides of the strut and coilover for road argument from experience.

A poor quality coilover can ruin a road car and I also agree that you shouldn't go too large with ARB sizes on a road car.

I always said that I wouldn't put coilovers on another every day road car, but having read the reviews and gone down the MeisterR route on mine some time back I'm very pleased with the results. The ride is excellent and the car is FAR more planted that it was on it's last (low mileage, 1 year old) pedders strut setup. It's like night and day and has transformed how the car rides bumps both at standard speeds and high speeds. It's very impressive indeed and a great middle road daily setup IMO.

With reference to the comment about Millbrook Proving ground oval circuit 2pot, well, if it was on the oval and not handling circuit then your comment about spring rate, strut argument etc is totally irrelevant. That's not a dig at all, but arguably on a constant velocity banked circuit you're really not stressing the struts are you?

Also, you can't compare strut/coil spring rates to coilover spring rates. 2 totally different systems with totally different factors. They don't compare.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

A technical discussion? I think I mentioned ride frequency and damper curves as well, but you chose to ignore those. But, I'll give it a go. Let's bear in mind we're discussing road car suspension.

Why you'd want an overly stiff suspension on an awd road car is beyond me. The benefit of awd is traction - why destabilize the tyre contact patch with stiff springing (did you not see the video?) and massively increase the wheel rate with big bars, which also reduce droop travel. You want to de-couple the suspension, side-to-side, not equate the behavior of a solid axle.

Better to utilize a, relatively, higher rear ride height - moves the roll centre rearward, increasing rear roll resistance.
That, in turn, makes the front end roll more - helping turn-in response and reducing understeer, without the use of stiffer bars.
You want the smallest bars possible, on a road car, to avoid 'roll-rock'.
Roll-rock:
If the spring rate is relatively low and the bar is too stiff, a suspension movement, initially, occurring on only one side of the vehicle, will be transmitted to the other side, inducing an unsettling 'roll-rock' motion.

Bars reduce grip - although, a bigger rear bar transfers grip diagonally, from the the rear, to the front.
So, although you've lost more grip at the rear, than you've gained at the front, the overall balance is more neutral. Bearing in mind, the end with the highest combined spring and bar rate will slide first - If that's the rear, then you've got an accident waiting to happen in an emergency situation or poor weather conditions.

I wouldn't use larger than a 19mm front bar on undulating/uneven roads.
I'd certainly increase the static caster and front camber.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

Yes it was the oval. The point I was making is that overly stiffening the springing/damper curve and the use of big bars reduces grip and the ability to hit Vmax. The dampers will be working overtime at 160mph.

Pedders should release their spring rates. Their ride heights are odd. May be I should put their dampers on a dyno

2pot

iTrader: (3)

They are both struts - they are the same.
One has an adjustable perch (may be damping) and a smaller spring diameter.

Technically, a strut isn't a coilover.

BrownPantsRacing

iTrader: (6)

Sorry but you can't compare spring rates of the 2 systems. They are so different in design, spring shape, spring size, spring length, damper size, damper length, damper design, damper rate etc. Any good coilover or strut manufacturing company will tell you this.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

You might have a linear spring, or a progressive spring, or a dual rate spring.

The small diameter linear "coilover" springs, may utilise a helper spring - to stop the spring dislodging at full droop. Or, a tender spring - to give a dual rate spring.

Irrespective of the spring design, at the ride height, there may be, say, a 4Kgf*mm rate. The damping will have to control that rate - it doesn't care what the spring looks like.

They are both struts.

The spring design will have a rate/rates - the damper will control the spring oscillations - at low, medium and high speeds.

What is being described as a "coilover", usually, but not always, has higher-rate springs. Hence, a damping curve to accommodate that spring rate or higher, very rarely lower.

The "coilover" allows you to run low ride heights, without interference, due to high spring rates. That doesn't mean they are the optimum rates for handling on uneven/undulating roads + there are down-sides to over-lowering a car that uses struts.

BrownPantsRacing

iTrader: (6)

A standard strut will always have a more conservative spring rate than a coilover as there is no form of damper adjustment available to tune the ride to suit. Secondly, coilovers WERE designed and used predominantly for track based cars, but manufacturers have started to design coilovers now in the knowledge that they will be used on the road with little to no track action. As such spring rates have come down and the choice of coilovers available has increased massively over the last few years.


I'm neither for or against either and have used and loved both on road cars. Can see benefits either way. For me, setting the ride height and setting my car up just how I wanted it was an important factor in my choice and decision to go down the coilover route on this car.

tom-r33

iTrader: (2)

very thought provoking post, thanks. let me do some research, have a think and respond properly when i'm a bit more clued up

tom-r33

iTrader: (2)

simply put, both are a damper + spring, just in different packaging

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)