Quicker than a 450 BHP Scooby or Evo with AP 6 pots and coilovers? 993 Turbos are getting to sensible money these days

[Edited by john banks - 11/1/2003 3:33:51 PM]

 

Hi folks, i have had a subaru for a long time now, and have been reading the forums occaisionaly for quite a while. Only started to post recently.

I have a silver MY99 uk saloon, and would like to modify it to get to 350bhp and around 340ish torque. I used to do drag racing when i was younger, so would like to do it again, possibly with this car. Would it be good enough?

What mods should i start with, a list would be nice please, and why.

thanks in advance

a

 

what current mods?

also excuse the question, but how old as you may struggle to insure it..

What budget?

David

 

no current mods

age is 40+, insurance is cheap at present

budget is ok, few grand at least, be enough wont it?

a

 

340 lbft will probably eat a standard gearbox. Will also need a fair bit of boost.

Try about £10000 to get this sort of power & torque with some reliability and still be driveable.

20G turbo
Induction kit/inlet pipe
Manifold/uppipe
Gearbox/clutch
Injectors
Exhaust
Intercooler
ECU
Fuel pump/regulator
Labour to fit it all
Brakes
Suspension
Strut braces, drop links, anti roll bar
Larger wheels and tyres

[Edited by john banks - 10/29/2003 11:22:12 PM]

 

And that's if....

It goes together sweet.


If not..............


Laugh at the joys of scooby modding.

 

whats a 20g, 20 grammes??

 

It is a 440 BHP capable hybrid Mitsubishi turbo.

 

I only want 350 not 440. Wont that be too laggie? Is there no turbo that fits the 350range?

Power would be nice to come in early.

 

Depends on which dyno you want 350 BHP easily on. It is nice to have some spare capacity in the turbo so you are not making lots of hot air and EGBP, especially in this case since the 20G only spools slightly later (about 200 RPM) than the 16G, and at sane boost levels should not run into too many surge problems. You could use a 16G but you would have to run it at higher boost. If you want 350 BHP on any dyno on any day don't just copy any turbo which claims to have achieved 350 BHP, as you could easily end up fitting something far too small which you are not able to replicate the results on on your car with ease. You could probably use a 16G though.

 

Sorry, for sounding thick, i am. Whats all these g's about??

surely 350 is 350??

 

Forgot to say thanks for the list.

Any ideas on pecific makes, suppliers, etc?

 

p20spd has a car that does pretty much that md304, link, fmic, water inj. etc.. and does 12 sec qtr..

drop him a mail p20spd@hotmail.com

no doubt he will reply.. but he's busy at work as he hasnt even got time for lunch these days!

David

 

thanks for that. i sent a mail to the address.

any more?

 

A 20G without headers on my car spooled up better than an MD304 with headers on my car. It is an easy 350 BHP on any commonly used UK dyno for Subarus, without headers or water injection, even with a 2.5" exhaust and probably the standard induction setup and a centre cat if you want there is so much to spare. Given that there is no need for headers to get 350 BHP easily with it, you are in no danger of sacrificing torque or suffering from leaks using some sets of headers (note P20SPD's 350+ BHP WL6 plots show that the torque has dropped compared to previously - is this due to the headers? On the same setup it doesn't show 350+ BHP and 340 lbft which is what the poster wants).

20G is cheaper, economically rebuildable, has a far more competent turbine wheel and has at least +80 BHP power potential, whilst spooling up as early as an MD304. This isn't a supplier issue, Lateral Performance can supply 20Gs and MD304s - maybe you should talk to Mark and ask him which is best for an easy 350/340 on a more conservative dyno. The only downside I can see to the 20G is surge if you push it over 1.4 bar before 4000 RPM. But few sensible people would want to do this anyway, and my MD304 used to flutter a bit if I tried to do the same, as does the TD05 and VF34/35 a bit too on some cars.

[Edited by john banks - 10/30/2003 11:47:53 AM]

 

16G or 20G refer to Mitsubishi compressor wheels. The number is the size, G is the blade pattern. Your standard turbo is a TD04L-13G. TD04 refers to the centre housing and exhaust wheel, 13 refers to the compressor wheel size. This turbo is capable of 260-290 BHP. TD05H-16G is the turbo that was fitted to a lot of 92-96 Imprezas and is a little more laggy than the standard turbo, and is capable of 340-370 BHP. TD05G-20G is a hybrid where the compressor wheel and cover of a TD06 are placed onto a TD05, aiming to give good spool up (which is mainly related to the turbine not the compressor) but more power (410-440 BHP), or higher efficiency at the same power.

The MD304 is an IHI VF24/8/9 based turbo with a Garrett compressor wheel in a machined VF compressor cover, and is capable of 330-360 BHP.

The VF turbos have three weak spots - they are less reliable than the apparently lower tech Mitsubishi turbos, they are not economically repairable, and whilst they usually spool up reasonably well, the turbine is just too small and/or inefficient to give good power. If you hybridise them further and fit a larger P20 exhaust housing (as VF22 and VF23 turbos) and fit a larger compressor wheel still you can eek 400 BHP out of them on the more optimistic dynos, but the spool up is then poor in comparison to a 20G.

The turbine or compressor can be the limiting factors with turbos. It is common with hybrids to enlarge the compressor side first and this can give some success if the turbine has some reserve capacity. Of the standard turbines fitted to Subarus and easily available with exhaust housings to fit Subaru up and downpipes, the Mitsubishi TD series is the clear winner in the power stakes with a clear 10% advantage in flow potential based on results (440 BHP best on TD, c.400 best on VF), and almost as good as the best from the IHI VFs in terms of spool up (the VF35 spools up a little better than the TD05).

There are loads of previous threads on turbo selection if you look back.

Regarding dyno differences - yes it is very significant - averages across all the decatted MY00 runs (no other mods) I could find on the dyno site:
Well Lane: 263 BHP
Power Engineering: 256 BHP
Powerstation: 223 BHP
Star: 219 BHP
I make that a 20% increase in power from the lowest to the highest on the same spec of car. As always, dynos are meant for same day comparisons on the same car, or more for holding the load in one zone so you can map it.

[Edited by john banks - 10/30/2003 12:22:35 PM]

 

john banks

may i ask how you've come to know so much about modding scoobs? i've been trying to find somewhere to learn more about scoobs, but it's hard when you've already got a job.

sorry for the hijack

 

I learned it from:

- off here and other BBS
- extensive reading and research
- experimentation (mapping dozens of car with about 15 different turbos, I've had about eight turbos on my own car, three different intercoolers on my own car, five different induction setups, four different headers, four different exhaust systems the list goes on, my fifth engine is now going in etc)
- advice from the likes of: Bob Rawle, Andy F, Mark Aigin, EMS, Ecutek, Pat, T-uk, David Wallis, Adam M, Moray, AlanG, Stevieturbo, Pavlo, Sam Elassar just to name a few in no particular order
- my knowledge is highly limited compared to a lot of these guys, I have a bit of a nack with ECUs, am naff with spanners, I can soak up theory quite well, I am happy to run a lot of boost and try to break things

[Edited by john banks - 10/30/2003 12:32:33 PM]

 

christ

not a two week course then?

have you done a lot to your own car then? i'd like to have a good look at it sometime if i may? i'm only 22, but in order to do what i want to do, i really need to get as much info as possible, fairly quickly, if you know what i mean?

 

I'll not clutter up this thread, but if you have a week to spare add all the above people to your favourites here and search for them on 22b and have a long read Edited above re my own car mods, I have a project thread here... http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=179486

Now back to the topic- there are more than a few ways to skin the 350 BHP cat. You could blag a ride in a few cars at meets and learn a lot from the owners.

 

cheers

 

Cheers John

learnt from you too

 

cheers John(hope you dont mind) can you point me towards any cars in my region? I live in the norf

£10,000 WOW really.

I went to a few rollig road days many years ago, and the guys running it, think it was in Batley or dewsbury, sad a standard car was producing standard figures. That was Audis, vw, cossies, etc.

Why the variance? 260ish compared with 220

i recently went to a event where the were some good cars, but for times on the 1/4mile, there wer some big differences. More power but not as quick.

You got any good products to use, as you used so many, saves me money.

Thks again

 

would this be any use?
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=264558

 

where in the norf?? its spelt north

Im in leeds, p20spd is near york / hull..

John / Andy is in scotland.. Harvey is in Darlington..

Your better off if in haggis land

 

No reply fro this P20SPD yet

I am in norf yorkshire

 

come to yorkshire scooby meet.. see northen section..

might be quicker than trying to explain on here..

+ Im bored at work, but cant be arsed.

 

A large chunk of that 10k is the uprated gearbox. If you were to settle for a bit less (320-330bhp/310-320lbft) you could probably getaway with the standard box? Or maybe not seeing as you intend to use it for drag racing.

 

can you go higher spec for same money ornot?

would the internal be ok?

 

Here's what i've done to my car, as said above 'its not cheap'

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=261408

Good luck
Scott