EMS

John,

Looks like it had produced a few more pony's at a little more revs. I assume you raised boost after about 4.800 RPM due to surge below. How does it behave while driving on twisty road compared to the TD05? Is it very laggy?

Mark.

Andy.F

Any reason you lifted at 6200rpm ....other than the obvious twitchin sphincter

I was wondering if the power fell off after that ? My Ra levels off at 6300 - 6500 then climbs again by 10 bhp to 7000.

carlos_hiraoka

John, let me get this right between 2700 ~ 5000 rpm the "stock" front entry TD05 has more torque ..... in fact there is a ~ 30 lb.ft torque difference for almost 700 rpm (in the 3500 - 4500 area). Also you have to use very high boost (1.7bar) for this xtra WHP above 6000 rpm.

It seems clear to me that the best solution between this two, still is the FE TD05, less surge and boost creep problems too. And I don't think that in a engine with stock internals that the rods will like to handle high boost + high revs

Carlos H.

Andy.F

Carlos

There is even more torque to come i'm sure. It is only running 18 psi in the midrange compared to the TD05's 25 psi.
The 'controlled bleed' plan has still to be tested

For the 2.33 on the way, the TD05 would be out of its depth, the 06 hybrid is just coming on to its 'sweet spot'

Andy

john banks

Agree Carlos, but the 20G is nicer from 5200 RPM or so. If you have an 8000 RPM + rev limit

Just been out and tested, Delta Dash Road Dyno cuts off after it sees peak power it seems, I can't get it to display the run down beyond to see what it does up to 7000 RPM. Would be handy to know since if I had this car on track or brisk road driving I would try to keep it in the 5000-7000 RPM band.

Andy.F

John

The TD04 trace seems to record to 500+ rpm past peak power ?

Is it something to do with the acceleration rate in 3rd being a bit rapid up there ? Is it something to do with the sample rate ?

How would a run in 4th compare ? (on a private road of course)

Deep Singh

When I quoted some figures of a JDM STi7 making 320 BHP atw (1.3ish bar)everybody had a good laugh.Those figures were achieved
using DD aswell.Why are these acceptable and those not?

john banks

IIRC, Johnno posted about those figures from a BRD mapped 7 but it had a hybrid turbo which was quite large? Doesn't seem improbable. Would seem improbable on a VF30 though.

If it was on a flat bit of road (with checking in the other direction) with realistic weight, drag, gear choice and was repeatable why not?

I think some won't believe these until they are from a rolling road, but I don't believe a lot of rolling road figures either

Consider though that my 550s at slightly raised fuel pressure are basically wide open at >90% IDC and it is only 12:1 AFR. Consider that the 20G map is at about 620 CFM where I think I am hitting it.

I wonder if a bit of water might let me get the same figures on plain Optimax? Any thoughts?

[Edited by john banks - 3/12/2003 10:46:11 PM]

David_Wallis

john yhm.

mlambert

any idea what the octane rating is on that fuel with the optimax?

rroberrto

John,

the ignition timing seems a tad on the retard side between 3000 ~ 5000 RPM considering the boost and your FMIC. Is it tuned so for a faster spool-up? Or simply a matter of the monster torque which is not so knock-friendly forcing the timing down?

john banks

I didn't do anything with the fuelling and timing from 3000-5000, yes it is retarded excessively, I was working on top end. The problem is I didn't want to spend hours mapping the torque with my standard gearbox (not changed yet, but I have the new one sitting there waiting, probably will wait for new engine), and I didn't want it detting. This was a quick and dirty map to see if it would make power on my 2.0.

NF claim 102 RON, which is apparently equivalent to the best Jap pump fuel?

Denmark

iTrader: (2)

It´wild what the standard euro ej20 engine can withstand of boost,
It´s really great that You guys test it like that!!!.
I really like the standard td05´s way to dilever the power.

Skassa

john banks

It makes you happier to run 1.3-1.4 bar perhaps, but bear in mind that it could blow running at 1.7 bar all the way to 7000 RPM for a long time. Tolerance to det will be very small, but if it is det free, then the engine has a much greater chance of survival.

Dave D

John

Do you sell these turbos ?

regards

Dave

john banks

No. Email AndyF as per his profile in his post on page 1, he has a few kits from the US, but I think a few are spoken for and he was waiting for data from my car which I have shown above before releasing them.

Andy.F

Dave - You have mail

Andy

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

with the 20g kit, when do you get one bar of boost, and how long does it take to spool up to 1.8bar?

As it looks like it spools to 1bar at 3400rpm and 1.7 at 5400rpm? or am I reading the graph wrong???

[Edited by ChristianR - 3/13/2003 8:08:41 PM]

john banks

Andy F and I wanted to try the TD05/06 20G hybrid on my car to see how it compared to his and test it a bit more. The results after some mapping work are not far off his which shows that a UK MY00 can make good use of it too, albeit with quite a lot of NF octane booster (on plain Optimax with 1.6 bar it does about 328 WHP). This is 1.7 bar, 12:1 AFR on wideband and lots of NF and mapped to the edge, TD05 graphs at 1.7 bar peak, 1.55 held are also shown for comparison - choose where you want your power band. Both graphs using the same Optimax and NF.



Dyno Test: td062
================

Maximum Wheel Power: 357.9 BHP @ 6147 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 313.9 LbFt @ 5809 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 259.3 BHP per ton

Terminal velocity due to power: 198.0 mph

In Gear Acceleration:
30 - 50mph = 3.2 seconds
40 - 60mph = 2.3 seconds
50 - 70mph = 2.0 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.8 seconds

Speed per 1000 RPM:
1st: 5.2 mph
2nd: 9.3 mph
3rd: 13.3 mph
4th: 18.7 mph
5th: 24.6 mph

Maximum Speed per Gear:
1st: 37.3 mph
2nd: 66.1 mph
3rd: 94.3 mph
4th: 132.5 mph
5th: 174.5 mph

Vehicle Mass: 1380kg
Drag Co-efficient: 0.35
Frontal Area: 2.20 square metres
Wheel/Tyre Setup: 215/40/17
Rev Limit: 7100
Test gear: 3
Max Speed of gear: 94 mph

Dyno Test: 13
=============

Maximum Wheel Power: 318.4 BHP @ 5854 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 310.7 LbFt @ 5008 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 234.1 BHP per ton

Terminal velocity due to power: 190.4 mph

In Gear Acceleration:
30 - 50mph = 2.9 seconds
40 - 60mph = 2.1 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.8 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.8 seconds

Speed per 1000 RPM:
1st: 5.2 mph
2nd: 9.3 mph
3rd: 13.3 mph
4th: 18.7 mph
5th: 24.6 mph

Maximum Speed per Gear:
1st: 37.3 mph
2nd: 66.1 mph
3rd: 94.3 mph
4th: 132.5 mph
5th: 174.5 mph

Vehicle Mass: 1360kg
Drag Co-efficient: 0.35
Frontal Area: 2.20 square metres
Wheel/Tyre Setup: 215/40/17
Rev Limit: 7100
Test gear: 3
Max Speed of gear: 94 mph

I used heavy smoothing, 20kg heavier for the 06 because I had 3/4 rather than 1/4 tank fuel.

Based on 1235 + 30 ICE/luggage + 85 me + fuel (full tank is 40kg).

Both in the same direction on the same bit of flat road (go the other way and results are within 1% if it is not windy).

TD05 figures - ambient 5C, Magnex downpipe and centre, Blitz Backbox
TD06 figures - ambient 9C, Full Revolution 3"

3rd gear Delta Dash logs (throttle snap from about 2500 RPM):

Throttle:


Ignition:


Absolute manifold pressure (subtract 1 bar to get Boost): (note saturates at 1.67 bar, was running 1.7 bar approx)


Wastegate duty cycle: (Andy F's boost crept, mine clearly does not, maybe cams or slight breathing differences?)


Injector duty cycle: (550s, 3.2 bar differential pressure)


Airflow sensor voltage: (note slight upswing mild surge at 4000-4500, most has been mapped out)


Comparison with hybrid TD04, manifold, lots of breathing mods, over 300 BHP at PE.





[Edited by john banks - 3/12/2003 7:51:04 PM]

Andy.F

Banks ya ****** that's more torque than I've got and equal power What's that work out at ? 380lb-ft flywheel ?

Can't be bad, matches a well set up TD04 bottom end with over 420 bhp flywheel top end

You don't have a VF turbo trace from a std P1/Sti or something that you could compare to, have you ?

Andy

Interesting that the TD05 front entry would thrash the 06 hybrid in a 30 mph roll on, stir the box of course and things quickly change

[Edited by Andy.F - 3/12/2003 8:13:04 PM]

john banks

JDM STi 7 with a decat exhaust.

Wait till I get my cams Kerching

[Edited by john banks - 3/12/2003 8:35:14 PM]

john banks

Will need to change the rev limit in Delta Dash and try another run. It seems to kill the run prematurely - I didn't lift until 6900 RPM. Maybe there is more to come or at least to be displayed by Delta Dash.

It is not obviously any more laggy than the TD05, and is great on back roads, I am following the surge line of the turbo around the map. If you keep it between 5000 and 7000 RPM it is sensational, but quite usable from 3000 RPM as the torque curve testifies - compare with the STi or the TD04 for example, it is just that the top end is so good. Seems a nice compromise, would be a lovely track/fast road turbo.

[Edited by john banks - 3/12/2003 9:00:33 PM]

john banks

Actually if you change the smoothing of the graphs to light you get the rest of the revs until lift off. You have to try and judge yourself (I think it looks like 367 WHP for the middle of the last 2 sawtooth waves) where the middle average of the oscillations are as per other performance graphs. It is slightly more flattering when presented this way I think, but the program extracts the maxima



[Edited by john banks - 3/12/2003 10:00:10 PM]

carlos_hiraoka

320 WHP ..... BTW what turbo, the stock VF30 ?



[Edited by carlos_hiraoka - 3/12/2003 10:04:50 PM]