john banks

Smoother - subjective of course.

But it doesn't det as easily - adding 2-3 degrees to full load timing on the same tank of fuel - dets without, doesn't with Broquet. I would say that is a good result.

Fuel economy? - too early to tell.

hypoluxa

What RON fuel did you have in the tank?

2-3 degrees is very tempting... How much did they cost?

I believe these were fitted as standard on all P1's

john banks

Mapped for Optimax.

They are about £150, but I think the upcoming Scoobyshop might have a nice discount.

SimonH

Me again

If the P1s have these already and the car's being run on Optimax I assume it still can't hurt to put NF in with it too?

john banks

The more the merrier when it comes to octane, well at least until you get to about 102 RON on a standard P1, and probably higher on a modified one.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

What exactly is broquet ?? and how/where is it fitted, and how long does it last?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Imagine five ball bearings in a nylon mesh sock to hold them together in a single line with the diameter of the bbs about 10 or 12mm. They look like some sort of lead alloy. Supposed to last for 250,000 mls or something. Claimed to have been invented during WW11 and put in Spitfire fuel systems. The alloy acts as a catalyst and modifies the fuel if you want to believe that.
My car needs two apparently. Might be something to do with bhp or fuel consumption but lesser motors only want one.
Two from Well Lane cost about £100 I think. You got the picture?
I would like to see some independant test results and if they are as good as the vendors claim why has a proper scientific test not been carried out and published.
Were they fitted to P1s (did not mean it to look like that) and did any P1 owner ever see them?
Let me know if you want more details.

David Lock

Thank you John. To declare my interest for those that don't know I am a UK distributor for Broquet (and have been for 14 years). Broquet has been the subject of much debate on this board and I am not going to get involved in another lengthy slanging match as, as John's title indicates, it usually deteriorates into a snake oil vs genuine product debacle. I know I've been there. It's the easiest thing in the world to say "that can't possibly work" and much harder to take the time to read what the acknowledged experts actually report and keep an open mind. So staying with the facts.
John recently purchased Broquet from us - he didn't get a freebie with a request to post a good result - as he was interested in investigating it especially as Bob Rawle had also had positive results particularly on the engine timing/det' aspects.
Broquet is supplied as a number of tin alloy hemispherical pellets contained in wire mesh for insertion in the fuel tank OR in a steel cartridge for direct insertion in the fuel line. We supply the in-tank version for most cars. For Impreza Turbos we supply 2 x 8-pellet in-tank units with one going each side of the split tank. They do not wear out and will last the life of the engine. We claim that they will allow the use of a lower octane fuel than would otherwise be required so effectively an octane booster. In addition they will provide more power and torque to an engine and economy should improve. User reports on this board have reported economy improvements of between 5-10% which means they will pay for themselves over a period of time - it's quite interesting to calculate say a 7.5% fuel saving over the life of a 100,000 mile engine averaging say 22 mpg. There is no problem using Broquet in combination with the other agents mentioned. It was confirmed on the board some while back that they were fitted as standard to every P1 and yes they were seen lying in the tank by a P1 owner. In the medium and longer term we claim that Broquet will keep the oil much cleaner (because the combustion of fuel is more complete) which, of course, is beneficial to any engine; also that exhaust gas emissions will be substantially reduced for the same reasons. My own long term non-'cat test vehicle (not a Scoob) will just pass the exhaust cat test even though it doesn't have a cat fitted. The technology came from WW2 and was first used in Merlin engined Hurricanes on the Russian front to cope with low octane local fuel (Merlins wanted 100 octane plus). There are many copies of the product around, a few OK but many not. Broquet is the original concept. Ther are many links on my site to facts and figures, testing and history (see my profile). There is not as much as there should be on modern performance engines, apologies. The cost for a pair of 8-pellets is £147.70 but are available at £129.99 for Scoobynet members. I will now try and keep out of the debate but would be happy to take any genuine enquiries off board, e-mail to david@broquet.co.uk or telephone 01403 823507.
David Lock.


edited to add contact details


[Edited by David Lock - 10/19/2002 7:35:47 AM]

Markus

Might as well add my 2 cents worth.

I have a MY94 WRX Wagon, and used to run it soley on 95 RON fuel, did get some laughs, and comments about the possibility of blowing it up (should have 102 ron fuel) but it was fine, but, as a safeguard, I read some stuff about broquet, and was tempted by it, as some had mentioned, as on this thread, that it might reduce det, always a good thing. So, the scoobynet deal came up and I got a pair of number 8 borquets (think it's number 8, am sure David will correct me if wrong). It did seem to smooth things out and did seem to give increase in fuel economy.
My big plan was to keep a running list of mpg increase, but I lost interest, as people kept going on about how it don't work. I did not and have not lost faith in broquet.

Plus it IS fitted to P1's. I know a few P1 owners who have had a look around the fuel tank and found broquet lurking in there. So if it's good enough for IM to use then it must do something, otherwise, why would they use it?

Anyway, I am still a supporter of broquet, and one day, when the ol six numbers come up, I'll give some serious thought to setting up independant scientifically endorsed tests on wether it works. ie; bench test an engine with/without broquet and see the results. we'd then know the true result and hopefully shut up some of the sceptics, who have not and refuse to even try broquet.

nom

Just to add a little more to the mix
I got a pair of these a week or two ago (thanks David!) & popped them in. Set off, not a lot of difference. That was for a 20 mile or so journey. Later, I set off again; saw a lorry half-way up a fairly serious hill with a long stretch of twisties afterwards with nowhere to overtake, thought I'd have a bash at getting past it on the hill - the car went a hell of a lot better than I was expecting it to! (at this point I wasn't thinking about the Broquet thingies so it suprised me) - the engine also felt a lot smoother under power. A lot, in fact, like I'd just put in a good load of fuel, or an octane booster. Which I hadn't. Just the Broquet.
So, I have no empirical data on timing etc. (but should be able to get some soon, relative to pre-Broquet - I had no knock showing on the knocklink before the Broquets so can't give any info there either), but the difference is noticeable. I don't think I'm going to be getting better economy, but that's my choice of how I use the effective extra octane I appear to have now
A good product, I reckon!

Jza

So Mr Lock...

SNAKE OIL UNTIL PROVED OTHERWISE!!!

Where's some actual FACT then???

Why no full testing done under strict lab conditions.

Why no proof???

Until such time as you do some proper test that back up your comments, i'll still go with the snake oil theory...

Still getting the "it feels smoother" and "MPG seems to have increased" comments but nothing other than that from our beloved scoobynetters.

You show me the proof, i'll but the product. Oh - and please don't say "well Prodrive used it in the P1 so it must work" line that one of your supporters used...

Jza the sceptic

john banks

Jza it stops my car detting. That is enough proof for me No I've not spent big money researching it, but I would buy them again, and recommend them to any Scooby driver.

Katana

The testimony of several scoobynetters here is good enough for me. After the long explaination given by David, I still don't know what Broquet is? Is it a catalyst that though has nothing to do with the combustion process, just speeds the reaction up? or does it dissolve and act as an additive towards the process? Can someone show me a pic please/

Tim Bomford

Jza this has been debated so much on scoobynet, why don't you just do a search then make up your own mind instead of just slgging David and the product off. I just wished I'd remembered to order some of these when I recently fitted the new fuel pump to the 22B. It would have been an ideal opportunity.

Tim

nom

It's a catalyst.
It looks like a catalyst (ie nothing in particular).
It would work like any other catalyst - i.e. mysteriously (or rather so complicated people don't know specifically why).
And I believe that there have been independent tests done - they are just ignored, as many independent tests are if it's not understood.

Don't knock it if you don't understand it.
Exhaust catalysts - we may not all like them (performance reasons...), but they do their job & we all believe that - but how many of us actually know the process that the catalyst works by? Not many, I suspect.

As John says, the Broquet helps stop the car det. Why? Who cares!

Katana

Because it speeds up the reaction and makes it more efficient if its a catalyst. Thats all I wanted to know about it. I think I'm gonna get one for the next car (in a couple of weeks time ). How many pellets is needed for an RA?

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

I havent used it, and still undecided as whether to have a go. I think that the amount of people who claim benefits, albeit small must indicate that some good is being done. As for those who say they want scientific hard evidence. How can you measure driveability and show proof that it is better. That is one of the main benefits that people claim in a smoother running engine. If they do notice better mpg, whether scientific or not, these people are driving their cars everyday and know how often they have to fill up etc, so I think its fair to say that if they noitce an improvement, again, there must be one.
If enough people recommend it, then why not?. Im sure a lot of you have spent more money on dafter things, which did not improve matters at some stage. Most people on here arent here for profit, and some of those who recommend it definately arent doing so for profit, and they do seem to be smart enough when it comes to Subarus, and cars in general I guess.

I am tempted.

[Edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo - 10/19/2002 1:22:14 PM]

scoobyboy

just to add the sti7 also has them, we had to change a fuel tank due to a crash and found them in there.

Hoppy

Has IM or Prodrive actually stated that they fitted Broquet? I have heard this many times, but never seen a formal post from, say, Mike Woods confirming. It might have been found in fuel tanks, but that doesn't mean IM or Prodrive put it there.

Do they put it in their rally cars? Does any racing team use it?

Very willing to be proved wrong

Richard.

mutant_matt

Scoobhboy, are you sure? Which model of STi was it? Type UK, Type EU (for want of a better description ), JDM?

David, do you know anything about the Broquet being in any of the STi 7's?

Cheers,

Matt

David Lock

I have to be boringly politically correct in discussing use of Broquet in P1s and other Imprezas for reasons of commercial confidentiality. I stayed clear of "confirming" their use in P1s but when Simon de Banke was setting up the Broquet Scoobyshop offer some time ago he investigated whether the P1 story was true and it was confirmed to him by IM. He, SdB, subsequently confimed this on the board and so I can now confirm this to be the case. I know that the parties involved were/are extremely pleased with Broquet and I have reason to believe that Scoobyboy is quite correct in what he says about use in the STis - I only hope he remembered to put them in the new tank
I have no idea (honest guv') whether they are used in the rally cars. They are certainly used elsewhere in race environments although this is usually kept fairly quiet for obvious reasons. We have had some most interesting results in 4-stroke race engines e.g. offshore power boats and even racing Hovercraft where Broquet appears to have prevented the often regular engine blow outs and piston failures. I accept that this is rather subjective but if a power boat racer tells me he can get 500 extra revs at the top end with a jet size that no one else (with exactly the same engines) dare to use then just may be there is something to it!
On the matter of subjective comments "seems to run better etc" of course I accept that this is hardly scientific. However this is bound to be the case as most users do not keep a dyno in their garden shed and so this is all they are able to say - but it doesn't, as such, invalidate the comments particularly when you take an overall view of the general consensus. Measuring mpg improvements/changes over an extended period is also valid, even more so in a blind test where, for example, the driver doesn't know that Broquet is installed so his driving habits are not influenced by the knowledge of their presence. David

[Edited by David Lock - 10/19/2002 3:56:54 PM]

David Lock

Edited to take out double post - sorry didn't realise we had turned the corner. DL

[Edited by David Lock - 10/19/2002 3:52:55 PM]

Markus

Jza, you're more than entitled to your point of view, even if it is wrong (just jokin with ya! ok.)

Why no tests? well, I don't think David has the money or resources to do them, and why should he, he's a distributor, not a manufactuer of the product, so maybe questions should be asked at the manufactuer level of things. (David, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points)

I used it, I found it to work. Rather than slag off what you don't know, why not just give it a try for yourself and see if it works! you never know.

This is the thing that gets me about broquet, so many people screaming "SNAKE OIL!" when they have never used it, and don't want to even give it a try. And if some of the well known and well respected people in the uk scoob community start going on about it being snake oil then everyone believes them, rather than maybe trying it themseleves and not being one of a flock of sheep and nodding heads saying it don't worth without trying.

ok, gonna shut up now, had my say, and people know I use broquet and that I have faith in it and David, and no, I'm not on his payroll (brown bag full of cash in usual spot david - THIS IS A JOKE! just before anyone jumps to any foolish conclusions)

raybotha

John B. can you confirm whether those extra degree's advance are giving more power ? I ask because if you slow the flame front down it also allows more advance but not nessiseraly(sic) more power , as it doesn't contribute to calorific value like toluene for instance .

I am happy my Sti 7 has them in then . And if it takes away the worries of det thats good too .

Another thought if running racing fuel would it still be nessesary to add brouquets ? I know NF's mainstay is its ability to allow better misting of petrol and hence more advance .

My thoughts only friends , not meant too dissuade / persuade anyone from / to the product .

Ray

john banks

No I've not dynoed it and the differences would probably be too small to measure with confidence. But I treat it as all part of my anti-detonation measures.

All I can assume is that if I am able to advance timing on a turbocharged engine then I will be making more torque. I say this because it is very difficult to hit MBT on a turbocharged engine and certainly I've not crossed it.

David Lock

Ray,
Our Singapore office have had many before and after dynos carried out. One sheet I have is for a test on a 1997 mildly modified Nissan 200SX - turbo charged running 1.0 bar of boost (252 bhp with 304 Nm of torque). Using Broquet showed a gain of 6.4 bhp and a torque increase of 9.3 Nm. I am NOT a tuning expert so I cannot say how significant this is. David (ex-J'burg, mid seventies).

harvey

iTrader: (48)

As an early contributor to this thread I would like to add some more information.
On 04 February this year I added two Broquette fuel catalyst packs to my STI ver 6 Wagon. The cost was £90 + vat which I note is at odds with "special prices" quoted on here.
I am very interested in trying things to see their effect and I was substantially influenced in my purchase by the opinion of Bob Rawle for whom I have a very high regard.
The milage per tank and every litre of fuel added (to two decimal places)is diaried and consumption logged as it has been for numerous cars before.
I keep in gear acceleration results, in fairly well controlled environment for the numerous mods I carry out. I also have many rolling road and other test data logged.
Despite my careful and precise approach I have been unable to identify any benefit. I do however have an open mind and if the claim is that Broquettes suppress the onset of detonation and allow more advance to be run then that could easily be tested over one or two days maximum using one vehicle but by doing agreed tests using two vehicles I think the results would be conclusive.
I am happy for my vehicle to be one of the test cars and am happy to run and fuel it at my own expense. Perhaps John Banks or someone else interested in closely controlled tests could provide the second vehicle.
The test proceedure needs to be formulated but such an experiment would benefit the overall Subaru community on this board.
In the meantime I would be very happy to read any independant, objective test results that have already been carried out.
Hope this is seen as a constructive open minded approach as that is what interests me.

[Edited by harvey - 10/19/2002 7:25:12 PM]

john banks

Not really got the time though, but I did the quick test with the maps to see the effect on timing. Has to be said 2-3 degrees is not much, but in the grand scheme with other mods it can add up nicely.

[Edited by john banks - 10/19/2002 7:45:02 PM]

Hoppy

Still not convinced that Prodrive fitted Broquet to all P1s as standard. I want to see confrimation from from Prodrive first-hand, and a statement as to why and what the benefits are, or were perceived as being.

I will mail Mike Wood, but why not a public statement on here if it works? Why the secrecy? Why isn't it fitted to every car on earth? The mass-production cost of this thing would be pennies.

Richard.

PS In business, I've spent many £000k on in-depth but ultimately 'subjective' market research. It is astonishing how 'suggestive' people can be. In other words, if you are looking for a certain result, you will usually find it.

Hoppy

Hang on, John. So you drove up the road with X degrees of ignition advance, then slipped in the Broquet and bingo, more advance? It must be a miracle!

What were you hoping to see? More advance, maybe? And with the greatest respect to you and Bob Rawle, you both have an 'interest' in seeing better numbers (and I am not implying anything improper in this, it's just human nature).

All 'smoke and mirrors' so far...

Best regards,

Richard (being deliberately provocative)