Must be frustrating Les as you have a beautiful view of all that water from your house.

Chip

 

Yes I certainly do identify with those who are so concerned about fracking and if you are so rude as to call me a loon for that then you are at fault far more than I am over my concern for the future of this planet.

You should at least make sure that you know the facts before you start making generalised statements as you have done above.

The actual fracking is done by the use of highly pressurised sand mixed with water being pumped down the drilled holes. The water used contains a mixture of chemicals and toxins which would be very dangerous if forced into the ground water supplies. The high pressures necessary to fracture the subterranean oil bearing rocks could send the water used in any direction which could not be forecast. No one could know whether the rocks underground have cracking which could allow the fracking water to enter the ground water supply used by people from their wells.

You obviously did not read my earlier posts very closely. I said that the ground water is indeed used by the water companies to help support their water supplies. You have denied that and also that those ground water supplies feed wells which are used to supply drinking water to those who are not connected to the mains water supplied by the water companies. Of course people use it as drinking water, That part of your argument is therefore shot down in flames!

The real point is that for your own convenience you are prepared to ignore any of the possible dangers from fracking and how people could be endangered if the job was done carelessly, if not at first but in the future when the companies have to operate further afield to maintain their supplies.

You should also bear in mind that if the ground water did become fouled by the fracking liquid, it would take many decades for the system to become clear again.

I really don't care if you do accuse me of being what you call a "greenie" but I still maintain that the penalties of screwing up our natural water supplies are definitely not worth the risk of using an extraction system which is just not well enough understood at this time.

Les

 

You will have to explain which particular water I can see from my house!

Les

 

Bunch of Luddites IMHO.

 

No explanation then Chip!

The only water I can see from my house is the sea which is not a lot of use for making the tea!

Les

 

Not impossible through a desalinantor

 

To a certain extent on can understand the actions of the Luddites since they were trying to protect themselves and their families from losing their jobs and their living.

Those against fracking are trying to protect our natural heritage from eventual destruction which would be a grievious loss to us all.

From what you say, one can only assume that as far as you are concerned, any serious damage to our planet is of no consequence as long as there is a profit in it!

It might be worth it if you stepped back a bit and considered that uncontrolled attacks on the state of this planet would eventually lead to yet another Mars in the solar system.

We owe it to our descendants to take good care of the Earth.

Les

 

Les was a WW1 pilot, work it out for yourself.

 

I was going to fisk this, but then I decided I couldn't be bothered. Suffice to say you are mixing up two things, I was talking about rivers supplying the water IN BALCOMBE, not elsewhere. As for the idea there is some risk if the job is not done properly, this applies to all industrial processes, and neatly illustrates your irrational fears. I assume you live in a cave, because otherwise your stance would be hypocritical, enjoying the benefits of a modern society and hence encouraging the risks that it could all go wrong so you so clearly are afraid of

 

Unless we can alter the Earth's gravity, I seriously doubt this would ever happen! Life on Earth will continue long after humans have died out.

 

Do you have any evidence of these "toxins" (namely "a poisonous substance produced within living cells or organisms") being used? Sounds a bit libellous to me!

mb

 

Don't be ridiculous, he doesn't need evidence - the Earth is under threat from evil frackers!

Won't someone think of the groundwater!

 

Good owd wikipedia for a few. There are plenty of nasty's they use, but depends on the chemical make up.

Isopropyl Alchol
Butoxyethanol
Ethylene glycol

The problem is the health side effects are pretty much unknown. Bit like asbestos was back when it was widely used. In 20 years could we be in a situation where all the water put back down is found to be toxic, how do we clean it up?

 

The firms doing the fracking have been excused by the government from telling anyone what poisonous chemicals they add to the water/sand mix which they will use to fracture the subterannean rocks in order to extract the gas and oil.

I cannot help feeling that is a pretty big worry myself!

Les

 

I am afraid your post seems somewhat illogical.

This is the first time you have mentioned rivers or Balcombe, neither of which were specifically part of the discussion anyway.

The world is full of risks of course, but when you start talking about industrial processes, if those posed any significant risk to human life they would be stopped immediately. My stated concerns are not in the least bit irrational, we just don't know enough about the possibility of damaging effects from fracking especially pressurizing the rocks below ground with enough pressure to break them up with water and poisonous additives. No one actually knows the real subterranean makeup of the Earth well enough and how good is its sealing effect after the initial formation of the Earth with its molten core.

I really feel that you should read the last part of your post above and explain your accusation of hypocracy and that you say I am encouraging the risks emanating from fracking! Try as I may,that is the only meaning that I can place on it.

Les

 

Doubt they're going that deep Les

 

As I understand it he's basically saying that unless you've lived off grid all your life, grown your own food, made your own fuel, never owned a car, took a plane anywhere etc etc etc then you are a hypocrite having a go at fracking as you create demand for the fossil fuels they locate. I could be wrong however and I may have overlooked something 'deeper' though

 

Evidence please?
So you have changed "toxins" to "poisonous" (clever legal move ), even though the chemicals are Environment Agency approved - so not even poisonous then

mb

 

More or less, and the part where Les is saying the risks are unknown so we shouldn't do anything, and the part where he says things could go wrong so we shouldn't do anything. All whilst enjoying the benefits of a society that went out and did stuff, like fracking for example. One Luddite rule for the future (too risky!) but ignoring the "risks" that have got him the standard of living he enjoys. You want risky, talk about coal mining....

 

Which were now suffering problems like cave ins and such, thing that gets me is fracking isn;t the big light from above thats gonna solve our energy problems. So given the unknown dangers and lack of returns seems a bit of a pointless endevour to me at best, at worst down right dangerous.

 

It doesn't produce energy then Tidgy?

 

not in the volumes we will require going forward no.

 

Can you post some figures from reliable sources which back up that assertion please?

 

I'd wager Goggle\Wiki is getting a good old thrash about now

 

If I felt that fracking has no risks attached to it and that what they say about all that energy which is available is true,and I am not saying that it is not so, then I would be 100% behind doing it.

I really am concerned that there may be a risk of fouling the natural ground water with the fracking mixture containing poisonous chemicals because of the very high pressures involved and our lack of knowledge about the possibility of the fracking liquid seeping up into the ground water. We just do not know enough about the resistance of the underground rocks etc to the passge upwards of the fracking liquid.

One thing that has been stated is that if the ground water was contaminated, it would take decades to clear again.

I believe that is a reasonable concern and that it is dangerous to take risks based purely on theory.

Les

 

I get that you're worried Les, but I think you need to be absolutely specific about whom you mean when you refer to "our" and "we" in terms of what is known about the subject.

Do you mean the general public? Yourself? Me? Or are you specifically including the experienced geologists, mechanical engineers, chemists and other professionally trained, degree qualified people whose job it is to be experts in this field?

How would you justify the assertion that those specific people don't know enough, unless you actually share their knowledge and experience, and can quantitatively assess what is and is not known by that group?

I freely admit that I don't know anything like enough to form a useful opinion about the fracking process, and whether or not we should be doing it here in the UK. It's not my area of expertise. However, I understand and accept that there are people who do have a great deal more knowledge about the process than I do, and that it is their opinions, not mine, which should be used as the basis for decision making.

 

...but Les, they are not even poisonous, let alone toxic!!!

mb

 

I guess people had worries about gas and oil years ago as well.

 

Exactly. I was refering to the fact that you have all that water in sight yet you still have to use a well to get water for your house.

 

There is a risk to everything we do, but I don't see any other alternatives in order to secure UK's energy supplies. We don't see wind power or any other renewables as a viable alternative and nuclear power stations take decades to build before they start producing whilst there is a real risk of power shortages within three years. Surely this presents a greater risk to the country? Demand for energy is only ever going to increase as more homes are built and and ensure growth UK's economy.