Bhp difference tmic & fmic?
01 November 2012, 09:10 AM
#61
Scooby Regular
You are talking crap i am afraid. I've spent thousands of miles on tracks at speeds over 150MPH with a TMIC with the charge temps monitored, I've helped run front running Time Attack cars with TMIC's, the first two cars in this years 22B.COM sprint series class 2 for modified and track cars (you know, where you have to queue 10 minutes heat soaking before nailing the car) ran TMIC's, My own with aprox 460BHP/490lbft.
The whole discussion isn't around if you can or can't, you can if you really want to, the question is what gives you the better performance and thats where a top mount falls flat on its **** compared to a front mount.
Last edited by Tidgy; 01 November 2012 at 09:16 AM.
01 November 2012, 09:15 AM
#62
Scooby Regular
how is heat soak a problem? when does this happen?
i keep reading about guys hitting the continent at a blast then traffic where temps rise, but in traffic you wont be using boost, so why would an in-effienciency in producing boost pressure affect engine response, when your in an off-boost driving scenario?
i keep reading about guys hitting the continent at a blast then traffic where temps rise, but in traffic you wont be using boost, so why would an in-effienciency in producing boost pressure affect engine response, when your in an off-boost driving scenario?
01 November 2012, 09:39 AM
#63
Cost of installing, you have to cut up the shell for the pipe runs, remove the bumper crash protection beam, cut up your bumper, heat soak issues into the pipework, reduced eficiency of your water radiator, it looks a mess under the bonnet, common to blow hoses off, it looks naff with IC cores that dont fill the apatures properly, more suseptable to stone and crash damage.
90% of people fit the IC themselves, it's an easy job which doesn't require an expert. The cutting required really is minimal.
Heat soak can be an issue but there are ways and means of aiding it. Heat soak is surely more of an issue for a top mount.
Hoses blowing off, I've never seen or heard of it except for one on youtube. If the kit is put together properly this should never happen.
Look wise, yes cheap kits look naff but the majority out there are very good.
I'll admit that it probably does reduce airflow to the rad however I've never had any issues with this.
I'll also admit I do actually prefer the look under the bonnet when a top mount is fitted but I prefer function rather than looks. Most can't afford the crazy price your top mount costs so a front mount is a sensible option for most.
Last edited by MattyB1983; 01 November 2012 at 09:41 AM.
01 November 2012, 09:46 AM
#64
Scooby Regular
02 November 2012, 12:49 AM
#65
did you then switch to a front mount and check the power figures then check inlet temps at all? i put money on it being down in power. Also would be interesting to see the results of a test between a front mount and a silly money top mount like you have.
The whole discussion isn't around if you can or can't, you can if you really want to, the question is what gives you the better performance and thats where a top mount falls flat on its **** compared to a front mount.
The whole discussion isn't around if you can or can't, you can if you really want to, the question is what gives you the better performance and thats where a top mount falls flat on its **** compared to a front mount.
This is a post Bob Rawle made in the thread which discusses Twin Scroll Turbo options https://www.scoobynet.com/923692-twi...-billet-5.html
Since I have now mapped several cars using both the Chevron ultimate F1 cored TMIC and the lower cost budget version I have to say they are impressive, the f1 core is fantastic and on the road is the equal of a FMIC. But, yes, its expensive, the core is the very same used for F1 coolers (oil, fuel etc) and is very high efficiency.
I personally played a bit "safe" at the time but I was VERY tempted to use on on my own car. fair play to Simon he never put any pressure on though.
I personally played a bit "safe" at the time but I was VERY tempted to use on on my own car. fair play to Simon he never put any pressure on though.
If people like you stopped spouting nonsense about airflow to a TMIC, it would allow a far healthier discusion and give people on a tight budget more money in their pocket, FMIC have their place, but they are not the default option people need to go for.
02 November 2012, 12:56 AM
#66
Sorry John but come on mate, the above is rediculous.
90% of people fit the IC themselves, it's an easy job which doesn't require an expert. The cutting required really is minimal.
Heat soak can be an issue but there are ways and means of aiding it. Heat soak is surely more of an issue for a top mount.
Hoses blowing off, I've never seen or heard of it except for one on youtube. If the kit is put together properly this should never happen.
Look wise, yes cheap kits look naff but the majority out there are very good.
I'll admit that it probably does reduce airflow to the rad however I've never had any issues with this.
I'll also admit I do actually prefer the look under the bonnet when a top mount is fitted but I prefer function rather than looks. Most can't afford the crazy price your top mount costs so a front mount is a sensible option for most.
90% of people fit the IC themselves, it's an easy job which doesn't require an expert. The cutting required really is minimal.
Heat soak can be an issue but there are ways and means of aiding it. Heat soak is surely more of an issue for a top mount.
Hoses blowing off, I've never seen or heard of it except for one on youtube. If the kit is put together properly this should never happen.
Look wise, yes cheap kits look naff but the majority out there are very good.
I'll admit that it probably does reduce airflow to the rad however I've never had any issues with this.
I'll also admit I do actually prefer the look under the bonnet when a top mount is fitted but I prefer function rather than looks. Most can't afford the crazy price your top mount costs so a front mount is a sensible option for most.
FMIC do blow hoses off, which is why you'll find posts asking where to source better clamps. I've lost a few runs this year at Sprints because the car in front of me blew it's FMIC hose off so ruined my run when i caught them, it happens. When it does happen, hope you dont scoop up a load of stones straight into your engine, i've seen that happen too.
02 November 2012, 01:04 AM
#67
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heat rises, so in hot temps or no airflow the heat goes straight up, right into the top mount. eventually it heats up as a unit and becomes heat soaked. All the intercooler is (top or front) is a heat exchange device, it transfers heat from the incoming airflow into the external air dropping the inlet temps. So if its hot it can;t transfer the heat from the air because it has to cool first.
only time i hear of it is when guys have spent too long, driving too hard revs and then come to a standstill.
or is there other situations to consider?
02 November 2012, 09:31 AM
#68
Scooby Regular
think how you travel on a road, stop, start, slow, fast etc etc it heat soaks when you go slow or stop.
02 November 2012, 09:37 AM
#69
Scooby Regular
You would lose your money i'm afraid. Please stop posting information that isnt correct, all you are doing is showing you arnt open minded and put information up that isnt accurate.
This is a post Bob Rawle made in the thread which discusses Twin Scroll Turbo options https://www.scoobynet.com/923692-twi...-billet-5.html
This is a post Bob Rawle made in the thread which discusses Twin Scroll Turbo options https://www.scoobynet.com/923692-twi...-billet-5.html
Does also beg the question, what would your car get if it did have a front mount as a comparison?
It still doesn't get round heat soak when shunting in traffic, or the double the cost for it. For most folks £2k on a top mount is money that could be spent else where.
now, how about that core in the front mounted position
02 November 2012, 09:47 AM
#70
Scooby Regular
Heat soak should not be a major concern and in some ways is well over egged imo. Once you're moving inlet & charge temps fall fairly quickly with a TMIC or FMIC (and they both suffer with heat soak).
I've had both kinds and I've certainly not noticed any difference in response between the OEM TMIC and my Hybrid FMIC. I seriously can't.
Yes my pipes have blown off on the current FMIC set-up car and they did onmy SPEC C. If you know the tricks (like I found out from APi) you'll use hairspray - it works (because I'm worth it!) lol
A Hybrid fitted (for a Newage) is going to cost you around £700, which is pretty cheap imo, but as John suggests (and I know this from personal experience), an OEM Newage TMIC is more than adequate for the OP.
I've had both kinds and I've certainly not noticed any difference in response between the OEM TMIC and my Hybrid FMIC. I seriously can't.
Yes my pipes have blown off on the current FMIC set-up car and they did onmy SPEC C. If you know the tricks (like I found out from APi) you'll use hairspray - it works (because I'm worth it!) lol
A Hybrid fitted (for a Newage) is going to cost you around £700, which is pretty cheap imo, but as John suggests (and I know this from personal experience), an OEM Newage TMIC is more than adequate for the OP.
02 November 2012, 11:12 AM
#71
John,
By Bobs own admission the F1 cored TMIC you use is as good as a FMIC. Now that TMIC is a serious bit of kit which also means its bloody expensive. I'm unsure of the actual price but figures of £2000 have been mentioned. So, a 2K top mount is on a par with a front mount, a front mount that can be had for a quarter of that price. Shaun above as said he found no difference in drivability when swapping from TM to FM.
So we know the F1 cored TM is fantastic, far far better than a newage TM yes ? So that would surely make us believe that a FMIC is better than a standard TM if we go by what Bob states.
Or am I completely mad....
By Bobs own admission the F1 cored TMIC you use is as good as a FMIC. Now that TMIC is a serious bit of kit which also means its bloody expensive. I'm unsure of the actual price but figures of £2000 have been mentioned. So, a 2K top mount is on a par with a front mount, a front mount that can be had for a quarter of that price. Shaun above as said he found no difference in drivability when swapping from TM to FM.
So we know the F1 cored TM is fantastic, far far better than a newage TM yes ? So that would surely make us believe that a FMIC is better than a standard TM if we go by what Bob states.
Or am I completely mad....
Last edited by MattyB1983; 02 November 2012 at 11:18 AM.
02 November 2012, 10:14 PM
#72
I am finding it amusing how some of you cant handle having a heat exchanger working eficiently, or even more eficiently, in any position other than the front of the car. Heat exchangers, ie Intercoolers, dont care where they are, so long as they have good airflow passing through them. This is why it's important to kill off the nonsense Tidgy was posting regarding airflow through a TMIC, once you accept airflow is good through a heat exchanger you may be able to understand how it is able to work.
It's a shame shaun, that you didnt do what I and Andy Forrest asked you to do in your project thread, when you decided to install a FMIC. If you recall we both asked you to log your car going through the gears, so you could compare how the response changed when you went FMIC. I recall your answer to that was you couldn't be arsed.
Please dont get hung up on how much my TMIC costs, because you dont have to spend this sort of cash for the performance most people on this BBS will be looking for. I went this route because i am doing sprints and wanted a high eficiency core with minimal pipe run lengths, and what i have is very high eficiency materials that dont come cheap. If i wasnt competing i would have probably gone for the budget version, or maybe even retained my stock TMIC if that proved OK in testing at my power levels, my stock TMIC was more than happy enough at 360BHP/400lbft on the road and ocasional sprint.
Bob wasnt making any scientific comparisons with his comment, just a general comment on the fact the TMIC works extremely well, i would expect my TMIC to work better than the majority of FMIC in terms of heat exchange efficiency. On the road it really is very impressive.
But lets forget mine as i know it's not the norm, lets talk about what the majority need, and a FMIC is not needed for most people, certainly not for the OP, i believe for the majority of relatively average power applications it would actually make the car slower, (as lots of other types of aftermarket upgrades often do). Once you get to the point of overloading the heat exchanger you have to look to alternatives, a FMIC may well be the answer for you, but it's not the only answer and shouldnt be the default answer.
Lets not forget the Impreza won the Production WRC with it's stock TMIC, against the FMIC equipped EVO, in some of the worst temperature and airflow environments in the world. If it didnt work they would have had to change it's location and you would have found the Homologated model would have been fitted with a FMIC. Keeping minimal pipe run lengths certainly helps in that sport where you need instant throttle response, so a TMIC is ideal if it's not thermal overloaded.
It's a shame shaun, that you didnt do what I and Andy Forrest asked you to do in your project thread, when you decided to install a FMIC. If you recall we both asked you to log your car going through the gears, so you could compare how the response changed when you went FMIC. I recall your answer to that was you couldn't be arsed.
Please dont get hung up on how much my TMIC costs, because you dont have to spend this sort of cash for the performance most people on this BBS will be looking for. I went this route because i am doing sprints and wanted a high eficiency core with minimal pipe run lengths, and what i have is very high eficiency materials that dont come cheap. If i wasnt competing i would have probably gone for the budget version, or maybe even retained my stock TMIC if that proved OK in testing at my power levels, my stock TMIC was more than happy enough at 360BHP/400lbft on the road and ocasional sprint.
Bob wasnt making any scientific comparisons with his comment, just a general comment on the fact the TMIC works extremely well, i would expect my TMIC to work better than the majority of FMIC in terms of heat exchange efficiency. On the road it really is very impressive.
But lets forget mine as i know it's not the norm, lets talk about what the majority need, and a FMIC is not needed for most people, certainly not for the OP, i believe for the majority of relatively average power applications it would actually make the car slower, (as lots of other types of aftermarket upgrades often do). Once you get to the point of overloading the heat exchanger you have to look to alternatives, a FMIC may well be the answer for you, but it's not the only answer and shouldnt be the default answer.
Lets not forget the Impreza won the Production WRC with it's stock TMIC, against the FMIC equipped EVO, in some of the worst temperature and airflow environments in the world. If it didnt work they would have had to change it's location and you would have found the Homologated model would have been fitted with a FMIC. Keeping minimal pipe run lengths certainly helps in that sport where you need instant throttle response, so a TMIC is ideal if it's not thermal overloaded.
02 November 2012, 10:27 PM
#73
Scooby Regular
You're right John - I couldn't be arsed, but I do appreciate that would have helped to provide some definitive feedback (or go some way to provide some factual evidence). However, if there is any difference I would suggest it is absolutely minimal as I didn't feel any loss of response or increased time to come on boost between the two set-ups. That's me being absolutely honest. 
The reality is that I doubt the issue is an issue, as I would assume (logically) that I would feel anything worth quantifying as I'm quite sensitive to that kind of thing.
Logic dictates that shorter pipe runs would help, but it didn't appear to make any tangible difference in feel to me. Perhaps finite data would show something different.
The reality is that I doubt the issue is an issue, as I would assume (logically) that I would feel anything worth quantifying as I'm quite sensitive to that kind of thing.
Logic dictates that shorter pipe runs would help, but it didn't appear to make any tangible difference in feel to me. Perhaps finite data would show something different.
02 November 2012, 10:33 PM
#74
You change gear like a granny though shaun.
Do you have a charge temp sensor being logged on your setup Shaun?
I am not trying to poo poo FMIC here, they clearly work OK for lots of people, this myth that TMIC dont work and you have to change to a FMIC when going up in power or doing track work just needs a good kicking though, because it nonsense.
Do you have a charge temp sensor being logged on your setup Shaun?
I am not trying to poo poo FMIC here, they clearly work OK for lots of people, this myth that TMIC dont work and you have to change to a FMIC when going up in power or doing track work just needs a good kicking though, because it nonsense.
Last edited by johnfelstead; 02 November 2012 at 10:35 PM.
02 November 2012, 10:56 PM
#75
Scooby Regular
john, i totaly agree that the whole thing is to do with air flow, the problem is how big is the area of your scoop? how much does the front end areo kick up the airflow so it doesnt hug the bonet. scoop is what, 8 inches by 2 or 3 absolute max with no disrupted airflow? (guessing here so by all means correct me if you have an exact measurement). also if the airflow isn't fast enough the heat from the engine will rise, and where does that mean it will go?
A front mount wont get those issues, the open area is prob 12 x 8 inches (again not chucked a tape on it) so say tripple the size amd therefore tripple the airflow and if heat rises then wotn mater cos the intercooler isn;t sat there to absorb it.
No ones saying you NEED it, whats being said is it will see improvements over the standard top mount, or do you not agree with that?
A front mount wont get those issues, the open area is prob 12 x 8 inches (again not chucked a tape on it) so say tripple the size amd therefore tripple the airflow and if heat rises then wotn mater cos the intercooler isn;t sat there to absorb it.
No ones saying you NEED it, whats being said is it will see improvements over the standard top mount, or do you not agree with that?
02 November 2012, 11:34 PM
#76
Look at the size of the air inlets to heat exchangers on racing cars, they are tiny by comparison to the frontal area. That may give you some clues as to why what you are asuming is incorrect.
And no, if it's not ineficient at the power levels you are using, going FMIC is not an improvement over standard.
And no, if it's not ineficient at the power levels you are using, going FMIC is not an improvement over standard.
02 November 2012, 11:36 PM
#77
Scooby Regular
I can't argue with your factual first statement John! Lol
No charge temp sensor logged I'm afraid John. Harvey did all that testing on the Hybrid, so he'll certainly have info on that specific.
No charge temp sensor logged I'm afraid John. Harvey did all that testing on the Hybrid, so he'll certainly have info on that specific.
02 November 2012, 11:38 PM
#78
Scooby Regular
Look at the size of the air inlets to heat exchangers on racing cars, they are tiny by comparison to the frontal area. That may give you some clues as to why what you are asuming is incorrect.
And no, if it's not ineficient at the power levels you are using, going FMIC is not an improvement over standard.
And no, if it's not ineficient at the power levels you are using, going FMIC is not an improvement over standard.
02 November 2012, 11:47 PM
#81
Scooby Regular
was this thread though, just scannign it for the link lol
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...oler-test.html
Even talk of full blown race cars suffering from it over time, cossy in this case.
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...oler-test.html
Even talk of full blown race cars suffering from it over time, cossy in this case.
02 November 2012, 11:51 PM
#83
read this taken from that thread http://www.andyforrestperformance.co.uk/27032.html PMSL
Needs abit of an update as that was written before the Chevron TMIC was designed.
Needs abit of an update as that was written before the Chevron TMIC was designed.
Last edited by johnfelstead; 02 November 2012 at 11:52 PM.
02 November 2012, 11:57 PM
#84
Scooby Regular
yeah saw that bit, but again just cos it can run it doesnt mean it wont get a better increase over standard if you switch. Look at the comparison between the hyperflow (capable of 450) vs the fron mount, front mount wins hands down.
Dont forget kev was running a top mount on his 22 for a number of years cos he didnt want to cut the bumper, but even he admited it was holding it back
if you start wading in with costs
new age uprate - £350-400 fitted
front mount - £650 fitted
hyperflow top mount - £800 (last time i heard anyway, so may have fluctuated form that)
chevron = £1800
to me seems like a no brianer if your only gonna get equal at best
Dont forget kev was running a top mount on his 22 for a number of years cos he didnt want to cut the bumper, but even he admited it was holding it back
if you start wading in with costs
new age uprate - £350-400 fitted
front mount - £650 fitted
hyperflow top mount - £800 (last time i heard anyway, so may have fluctuated form that)
chevron = £1800
to me seems like a no brianer if your only gonna get equal at best
Last edited by Tidgy; 03 November 2012 at 12:00 AM. Reason: added rough costing
03 November 2012, 12:03 AM
#85
Thought as much, done on rollers with poor airflow to the TMIC, and no testing of transient response.
I'll have to post some logs from my car, based on that article it will blow your mind.
Chevron do more than one core design. The budget one is circa £1000
I'll have to post some logs from my car, based on that article it will blow your mind.
Chevron do more than one core design. The budget one is circa £1000
Last edited by johnfelstead; 03 November 2012 at 12:04 AM.
03 November 2012, 12:06 AM
#86
John everybody here will agreed,yours Chevron TMIC is probably best designed TMIC,which working well like on the track or road,really looking great bit of kit
I've read yours finding on the TMIC and Owen twin scroll turbo,really impressed,but still love the see,how will perform on the Rotated turbo(GT30/35r),if there will be limiting factor TMIC or not and if its possible to compare to the FMIC
Jura
I've read yours finding on the TMIC and Owen twin scroll turbo,really impressed,but still love the see,how will perform on the Rotated turbo(GT30/35r),if there will be limiting factor TMIC or not and if its possible to compare to the FMIC
Jura
03 November 2012, 12:12 AM
#87
A heat exchanger doesn't care what it's bolted to, so it should work just as well on a rotated setup.
It is a shame it's so expensive, but thats down to the way the core is manufactured, the core material is hand made which adds a lot to the cost.
It is a shame it's so expensive, but thats down to the way the core is manufactured, the core material is hand made which adds a lot to the cost.
03 November 2012, 12:16 AM
#88
I just wonder how many people have installed a fmic when they didn't really need to.
I was stuck on a below expectation 380hp and the advice from two top mappers was to go front mount.
What actually was happening was the oem dv was bleeding boost, causing the turbo to overwork, creating excessive heat, 180c+ pre intercooler. The short of it is, the dv was replaced,temps now 137c pre-intercooler at 1.6bar, the car went on to produce 421hp on straight Vpower, (at 380hp it was on Vpower/10%meth with no further progress possible). On 20%meth it produced 441hp/480lbsft, all this on a 400hp turbo, the MD321H. The tmic is an AVO which is a good bar and plate type and slightly smaller than the V8 STI TMIC.
Ok, I run a water/meth injection system which helps bring the ACT's down to 5/6 degrees of ambient and EGT'S of 600C at full boost. Previously the W/M system was only helping to mask the problem of the overworked turbo by keeping ACT's in some sort of check.
My next step is to fit a BILLET T which I'm hoping will give me another 30hp and a stronger top end which the H does lack on my set-up.
My point is more work should be done on whats coming out of the compressor wheel end of the turbo because in my experience it can vary enormously and any intercooler be it top or front would be challenged by temps of 180c+ and a lot better off with something around 130c.
Trev
I was stuck on a below expectation 380hp and the advice from two top mappers was to go front mount.
What actually was happening was the oem dv was bleeding boost, causing the turbo to overwork, creating excessive heat, 180c+ pre intercooler. The short of it is, the dv was replaced,temps now 137c pre-intercooler at 1.6bar, the car went on to produce 421hp on straight Vpower, (at 380hp it was on Vpower/10%meth with no further progress possible). On 20%meth it produced 441hp/480lbsft, all this on a 400hp turbo, the MD321H. The tmic is an AVO which is a good bar and plate type and slightly smaller than the V8 STI TMIC.
Ok, I run a water/meth injection system which helps bring the ACT's down to 5/6 degrees of ambient and EGT'S of 600C at full boost. Previously the W/M system was only helping to mask the problem of the overworked turbo by keeping ACT's in some sort of check.
My next step is to fit a BILLET T which I'm hoping will give me another 30hp and a stronger top end which the H does lack on my set-up.
My point is more work should be done on whats coming out of the compressor wheel end of the turbo because in my experience it can vary enormously and any intercooler be it top or front would be challenged by temps of 180c+ and a lot better off with something around 130c.
Trev
03 November 2012, 12:30 AM
#89
Scooby Regular
It all depends on what you want and how you use your car IMO. On my old spec c, when it still retained the oem TMIC @ 360bhp on the 2ltr engine, it was certainly losing performance when I was driving at Tuner GP. This isn't meant as a TMIC is crap conclusion, but just highlighting that it's horses for courses, TMIC, FMIC and type of TMIC/FMIC used.
