The caveats of "some" rich and "some" poor kind of meant that the above could go without saying, Jon (I am vaguely familiar with this newfangled system they call capitalism), I just think it's important to remember that there are different kinds of wealth.

 

This isn't a saints and sinners issue, it's an economic one.

I do wish people would stop putting the 'rich or 'poor' on pedestals or castigating them.

The basic fact is that our tax system is by design unfair, it is unfair because it takes money at a disproportionately higher rate from the wealthy than it does for the less wealthy. So when people like Nick Clegg stand up and say we need to make the richer to contribute more, what he really means is make the tax system even more unfair.

BTW this doesn't mean that I disagree with progressive systems, but I do take issue with the notion that the 'rich should pay more' THEY ALREADY DO.

I wish we could find a system that ensured that EVERYONE had a stake in society, somehow everyone should contribute, either financially or by their labours.

 

Likewise, I know some very pleasant and lovely rich people, and some absolute t****r poor people. The cumulation of wealth shouldn't automatically see you labelled as some psychopathic anti-social hate figure, as you seem to be portraying here.

 

He said 'some rich people'

Isn't that easy to understand?

 

Some rich people are ginger. In what way is it relevant?

 

And you think that only applies to high earners.!!!!!!

My sister has no kids (therefore no-one in publicly funded schools. (50% of all local spending is on education)) earns around 12k per year, and because there are no local dentists, has to go private. So what public services/ benefits does she get................zero (oh and she has never been to hospital...ever).

 

So you didn't actually have a point then!

 

@PB -Also, In regards to high taxes and foreign investment, higher taxes would be a deterrent for foreigners to live in the UK, especially the wealthy. This inevitably is a high rate tax for businesses since they will have higher salary costs to attract skilled foreign staff therefore reducing profits. If profits are low means that the UK is less competitive than other countries, then companies are likely to downsize operations and eventually move to another location. This inevitability means increased unemployment and more burden on the state and also increases the difficulty in generating interest in the UK to foreign investors. To continually increase the tax burden on the higher rate payers will mean they are likely to reduce their demand for products and services and thereby impacting local businesses and their ability to attract investment.

Your position of simply targeting and increasing taxation for the rich is flawed. You can only squeeze the 1% before they decide enough is enough and leave or use more tax avoidance strategies leaving significant hole in the total tax revenue.

 

Sorry I meant 2 or 3 % on the top rate i.e the 40% - not the 45% after £150K
And you borrow to cover the short fall. We need to get economy moving. The current plan patently is not working.

Its actually really funny how all the Tory voters here are all for the Government austerity plan ( the one that has taken us straight back into recession)and cutting benefits and services and the military - Right up until it might mean they have to contribute a bit more.

 

Interesting debate. One could say that society is intrinsically unfair, and that the tax system helps address that issue, and in doing so creates a nation more at ease with itself.
A flat tax rate, without any doubt, would create a more unequal society with all that entails.

 

Foreign investment is all about corporation tax rates, not individual ones.

 

I broadly agree btw, I just think people should stop playing the 'fairness card' when it comes to taxation.

'a nation more at ease with itself'?? SN is pretty clear evedence that we are nowhere near that

 

Snet is not an accurate cross section of society , thankfully.

 

That's healthy in my view: truth springs from argument amongst friends and all that; the dialectic etc. etc. When we all agree we'll have reached utopia and for me nothing could be more frightening. Things must be fairly tolerable when we're bitching over 5% tax and the Twitter account of a racing driver.

 

Nonsense, and this post proves you understand nothing just like your loony left pals. People aren't just handed £20k payrises like they are sweeties. Extra is expected, often a hell of a lot extra.

And it doesn't matter how high up the scale you get evening and weekend work is expected in many fields. Even if they aren't working in the office at the weekend they are at home preparing something.

Do you think a top barrister/doctor/architect etc just gets handed a £20K payrise or do you think they've got to graft into the evening and weekends to make that extra money??

Or the small business man, do you think customers just offer him an extra £20k because they like his aftershave or does he need to open longer, travel further to find clients etc.

This extra sacrifice comes at a cost to social and family life, many feel that if over half that money is going to be taken away the extra sacrifice isn't worth the reward.

The fact that you can't grasp this speaks volumes and explains your politics. It's why people of your political ilk can never be trusted with our economy.

 

Is your sister the model upon which you base all experience of people on that sort of wage? It's sounding like it. Apart from being highly unusual, what other point is there here?

 

Dingdonglor, do you work within the NHS?

 

Yeah - Not having kids and earning 12K, and struggling to get on a NHS dentist list is really ****ing rare :

 

Precipitous tax thresholds certainly influence my behaviour and have done for the last few years.

I was doing a second job which I enjoyed and was good at, but it paid less than my main job. In my main job my share of the partnership is negotiable, influencing the capital I have to put in/borrow and work/life balance.

With the loss of personal allowance at £2 per pound of income, and NI effects, the marginal rate I was avoiding was 62% according to my accountant.

Now I've stopped the second job and a partner has left we have restructured which means I will be working harder and hope to earn more gross because of that, but again it threatens going through a nasty threshold which makes it pointless for me to work harder as it would mainly better HMRC and the net I will be paid is not worth the personal sacrifice. Part of this restructuring to avoid these ludicrous tax thresholds is for me to get a massive loan I don't really need or want to reduce my taxable income because the interest is tax dedutible. By working less than I could because of tax disincentives, I'll do more DIY on my building work and then pay tradesmen less. I'm sure the tax system really didn't intend that, but that is what they get from putting a 62% threshold in my way.

 

How common is it then, Pete? Without the expletive and self-serving laughy smiley. How common is it? Spell it out to me. You haven't got a clue. How can you base opinion on what you want to be the truth?

 

Wow. Just wow. You are familiar with the concept of a hypothetical example yes?

Of course you have to work for financial reward, of course you take on more responsibilites. You are either driven to succeed or you aren't. But is the person that earns £20K and works the same hours less hard working?
Why should they pay more tax than they do currently so that the person earning £200K can pay less than they do currently? You still fail to answer that simple question

Sonny, as long as you are thinking the exact opposite of me I must be on the right track.

 

The national average wage is £26K. By definition there will far more earning less than that, than more than - Agreed? I mean thats basic maths?

Not being able to get on an NHS Dental list is hardly a contraversial situation - Agreed?

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/family...b-Living-alone
7.7 million people live alone. Fact.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/family...l#tab-Families

There are more households without dependant children, than with. Fact.

I'll accept you apology whenever you're ****ing ready to give it.

Unless you are going to somehow prove that being on 12K and not having kids is somehow rare?

 

So you just don't know, as i said.

Do you get a sense that an increasing number of people on here are laughing at your conviction to the Labour party, based on very very little of substance? Probably not. But let me assure you, that's the case.

 

Effectively that has already been done since the 40% threshold had been lowered from £42,475 to £41,450 in the last budget. You didn't say how much VAT should be reduced to but a reduction of 2.5% will hardly make a significant impact overall to the individual, but will have dramatic reduction in overall tax revenue. Whilst it may help in the short term, taxing the rich to oblivion is not the way forward. You say that the current plan is not working, but how can you be so sure? Is it realistic to expect a government 2 years in office to fix 13 years of squandering of the nations reserves and massive overspend making no provisions for the future as they based their economic policy on a constant boom and no bust economy.

 

Highly unusual ???? I know loads of people with low incomes, but who get very little in the way of public services/ benefits. Its only if you are low paid WITH kids that you get anything (or much).

 

Give me some numbers, Paul. Not know loads of people. People under £12k not claiming benefits. Put a number on it. I've looked and from what i can see the correlated data doesn't exist. But go on, prove me wrong.

 

Oh right, is that how it works? You ask for proof, I give you it, then I ask you for proof and you come up with **** all? Think I'll be having that apology, then.

Or, as I say, prove to me that somehow having no kids and earning 12K is rare. I mean I wouldn't waste my time if I were you, because you can't

And Tel, you should know by now that I could not give a flying **** whether a load of whinging Tory boys that I have consistently proven wrong on Scoobynet are laughing at me.

 

No Pete, it wasn't an apology, in any sense whatsoever. Please don't be mistaken.

 

Oh dear.

 

Man, it should be. You should be apologising to yourself for claiming that being low paid, not having kids and struggling to get an NHS dentist is in any way rare . I would be.