jef, regarding post #28, leaving aside ethics of it, none of it clashes with my understanding. It is an interesting combination to try to use androgenic steroids whilst managing some of the downsides.

However, and it is a massive however, it is a completely different approach to the treatment of disease where there is a need not just for an argument based on anecdotal experience and a small scale rat study, plus extrapolations from other data, but for licensed and regulated medication that has undergone randomised controlled trials and jumped through many regulatory hoops first, and is prescribed by a physician who is responsible for the patient's monitoring and follow up. Additionally, side effects and adverse drug reactions could be considered more acceptable when the number needed to treat is less than the number needed to harm, or the disease causes morbidity or mortality. Trying to engineer the body to be a machine whilst accepting lower standards of evidence in all these areas is a poor comparison to medicine treating disease. For a start there is nothing to treat, so the number needed to treat is infinity. The number needed to harm when using unlicensed medication in the circumstances above is likely to be lower. Rather than relying on anecdotes to suggest safety, I'd suggest it would need to be more exacting than the requirements for medicines to treat disease. It clearly isn't.

Physicians start from the premise, "first do no harm". They demand evidence of no harm rather than lack of evidence of harm in studies which are not up to their usual standards. They demand evidence of benefit. You can perhaps appreciate how alien this is therefore to our thinking.

 

Total tangent, but while you may still be on here, John. Could you think of a reason for this as no doctors seem interested, yet think it is strange. I suffer from some stomach problems, the main one being heartburn and that has gone on for a long time. Long story short, I had some different stomach problems a couple of years ago and was put on a course of steroids (prednisolone) and while at the higher doses, the heartburn all but disappeared. The consultant and GP are puzzled by this, as usually it would worsen apparently. Just wondering if you have any ideas??

Sorry for taking advantage of your profession here, just curious.

 

Initial thought is that prednisolone would make it worse in the majority of cases. If I think of anything else I'll let you know.

 

Thank you. That is what the thoughts of the doctors are, so they can't offer any reason for the opposite and I can only assume there isn't any way for them to try and work out why I would be such a freak of nature

 

I'm thinking of an inflammatory condition since the prednisolone is a potent anti-inflammatory. But I don't know of many inflammatory conditions of the stomach except atrophic gastritis caused by antibodies to gastric parietal cells and the only thing I can find on that is a tiny study that is tiny: http://gut.bmj.com/content/14/1/13

Might be worth asking what your MCV was, whether B12 has been checked and whether you could be tested for gastric parietal cell antibodies, really depends on the context and what else has been tested, a complete stab in the dark to be honest.

 

I don't want to bore you too much, but I've had many tests. Camera both ways (one twice) and a barium meal, or whatever they are called these days. Along with countless blood tests. When they prescribed the prednisolone, they thought it was crohns, but later ruled that out. Initally on that stay, it was suspected appendicitis, ruled out, but my inflammatory markers were through the roof. As it turns out, I have later been told they are always higher than 'normal' across the board.

At this point, they think I may have diverticulitis, but don't seem 100% sure on that. However, even with that in mind and I don't know all about the condition, they are unsure why the heartburn eased. Maybe it was just one of those odd things in life that may never make sense.

 

Bupa is the way
Called advanced plus with ecg about 500 quid
I had it a year ago, they do everything bar scan ya head takes a morning to do, even have fingers up yanbum and nads felt
Bloodtests lung heart fat colestoral and lots more

 

Lisa, would expect camera from below would should diverticular disease. The raised inflammatory markers and response to prednisolone suggests an inflammatory condition. Very difficult to say more without more info and it sounds like you're tricky anyway

 

I think I am too. I like to call myself unique.

Strangely, the camera didn't show diverticular disease, it was an MRI for something else that apparently showed it. Maybe I will never know for sure what is going on. Thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions, I know it must be difficult to try and offer anything other than guesses based on little information from some weirdo on the internet.

 

If you must (and I agree with Mr. Banks to a certain extent) there is a voucher on Group-On today here: http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/brighton

Steve

 

I have to say that I would prefer to go along with what John Banks is telling us, it is his job after all, and neither would I dream to make an insulting inference.

Les

 

john, i wrote out a massive reply to your response, detailing my lack of enthusiasm for published education re. our conversation, amongst many other things - then my laptop battery ran out and i lost it all, doh! lol, if i get the time and enthusiasm later ill try re-write.

regardless would just like to say thanks for taking the time to respond - and give some accurate info.

very helpful and appreciated

 

agghhh jon sorry to drag this up again

but just one last point youve made - is the low numbers of direct cases of AAS users youve dealt with in the past.

but one of my deleted points was the absolute massive rise in the numbers of new users, and this im sure will result over the next few years into something much more common place in gp surgeries - most needle exchanges now have more numbers from this than i.v drug users. and thats where i feel the education is a massive let down.

the informtion leaflets ive read refer to steroids AAS orals or injectables - then goes on to recommend oral dosages. without even clarifying what the active hormone is? obv youll know there mostly 17aa and vary greatly in toxicity??

basically the statement was along the lines of " with tablets an average dose would be 5-10 per day" that was it? no mg content mention, no active hormone mention? horribbly innaccurate advice.

ive for a long time wanted to become involved in local authority education - but the stigma attached could have negative effects.

 

I'm not sure of the context for the leaflets you mention.

The so called harm minimisation work for replacement prescribing of illicit opiates has worn me down, after much abuse of our service and then a few nasty incidents last year we've stopped providing the service.

I don't offer a needle exchange service and don't intend to, there are other services for that.

To me, involvement with "recreational" steroid users apart from treating their illnesses is about as medical as Turkish doctors being asked to "diagnose" homosexuality people to see whether a man can be conscripted to the army. They won't listen if I tell them not to take steroids.

I diagnose and treat illness. I'm interested in health promotion, but don't feel I can support activity that I do not agree with, and having been bitten by drug users too many times in the name of harm minimisation I'm not getting into this. If my advice is irrelevant to steroid users that is their look out, probably much like my advice in this thread for people chasing inappropriate tests for false reassurance.

 

Only on SN do you get a Bodybuilder debating medical issues with a GP

 

john please dont tkae any of my posts as offence or derogatory to your work, thats not my intention.
i can see all to well gp's and others have a massive burden of work to deal with, and with much frustration along the way. altho at times must be some great job satisfaction.

maybe your just old and grumpy lol. and have seen it all so many times before, where as ima fresh faced whippet full of enthusiasm (in my tiny niche section of interest).please take my silly comments in jest as they are intended

obviously my interest lies within my hobby, and also in education in this ever growing area. i dont expect you to act on any of it, or have answers to anything and ive thankd you for your time and input.

im well versed and experienced in my hobby, with many years of personal experience and also with guiding others, and it saddens to me to see anyone being mis-informed, esp from what should be trusted sources. this info will not come from gp's ect but sourced by local authorities from what seems to be very outdated info?

a big problem for AAS users is they realise any attention to there behaviour will ultimatley end up being pushed in a negative light, sadly this deters some from using exchanges and disposing safley, so as not to feed authorities information that could potentially affect there much loved chosen lifestyle.

as an unethical and ludicrous laws derived from media sensatioanilsm (mainly due to the carl lewis/ben johnstone situation) has drip feed the nation real b/s over the years, reversing education and attitude is an extremeley hard job, the media control this countries education by and large - and just for pure profit, not real education to help people.
little is said in media of female hormone manipultion for the purpose of contraception - yet this goes on, with little/no accompanying nutrition/guidance info - how starnge?

people that know me, know i love to help with all excersise related issues, including understanding nutrition - my passion is helping others, ive helped many jst through SC alone ive helped many with nutritiona and training advice.

anyway another boringly long post for you probably - its just the right info is out there, its just not getting to the peopla that need it, and thats frustrating

thanks again john and crack us a smile

 

nothing wrong with that mate

its good to air thoughts/opinions ect

im not niave enough to beleive im all knowledgable - and john is after all a highly trained professional - although doesnt have (and isnt overly interested) in the same thing as me

but hes highlighted some facts i really didnt know

its all good - beleive it or not a lot of bodybuiders are not thick fcks (altho some are lol)
many that take things seriously have a far greater understabding of nutrition that the general public

now do you want me to draw you the diagram of omega 3fatty acid ALA?

with double carbon bond, at 3rd point from the methly end? hehe

 

Just had a long day

The contraceptive pill has resulted in massive empowerment of women through choice. The long term safety data is there and there are some impressive drops in the risk of ovarian and endometrial cancer in particular with overall drops in all cause mortality for users vs non-users. The users are supervised by a medical practitioner and the drugs are tightly regulated. You'll find hardly any comparison with andogrenic steroids except that they are both sex hormones.

It would be interesting to see the positive light of steroid use from your perspective. Not sure it is on topic of this particular thread any more though.

 

ill display my media education with the numerous cancer scares linked to severl contraceptive pills
plus in the case of my wife use in not wht id call tightly regulted - be theis media hype or truth, youd know more thn me.
associted side effects with contraceptive pilss include increased mood swings(in males reffered to as roid rage) they can cause odemea, and related blood pressure issues

afterall its endegenous hormone administration, be they progesterone based or other they all result in affecting natural female function. not that im against them atall, just wish the same courtesy was extended in the opposite situation.
its a fact as males age natural testosterone levels can drop, esp along with typical wstern lifestyles - this can lead to low self esteeem, confidence, erectile dysfunction - along with a host of other conditions, easily rectified with TRT doses, now thats for normal test levels.
AAS use has massive health benefits, although maybe not in the way people think. apart from putting the body into n eviroment where muscle mass can be increased - pending correct nutrition.since muscle is the metabolic factory for burning calories - can reduce the storage of bodyfat - can increase confidence and there will also be increases in red blood cell count, oxygen capacity, and some mobilization of fat cells.

but for me the main benefit is the change in attitude to lifestyle - and for many an interest develops in nutrition understanding - something massivley lacking in this country, leading to the current/pending obesity epidemic.
the change from young males binge drinking, being public nuisances, causing social unrest and violence - all too relevant in alomost every town centre weekly.

sensible users will run sensible cycles for sensible time scales and indulge in excersise rather than binge drinking, disruptive behaviour ect.

a real real problem in our society

out of the two drugs, AAS or alchol, AAS has massivley lower social effects and can increase health by way of users gaining an understanding of nutrition

 

I spent a couple of years around bodybuilders at the gym I went to, proper meatheads place, they arent all thick but there were a few I reckon would chase a ball if I threw one, saw them exchanging stuff in the car park and got told to be quiet about it, pretty menacing at first but then offered it to me, I just said I wanted to see what I could do without and might be in touch,

I did see the results other people were getting, a young lad started after me and in 12 months he went from skinny to pretty big, he did train but it was the Steroids that made all the difference, was weird as most turned up bought a belt, gloves, baggies, Protein and a load of supplements and then were never seen again. There were a couple of girls that came in one already pretty big and one pretty little blonde one, I watched her face turn male, seriously could see it change over time.

I ruled it out mainly as I wasn't bothered about being massive, competing and I wasnt happy with the health aspects, couldnt face needles but I can see how it is compelling when you arent seeing any gains despite eating right and training like mad, some people just dont seem to get much bigger even if they get stronger.

I think you are probably as dilligent and sensible about it as anyone possibly could be, I dont think they are a fantastic idea but any risk can be mitigated by doing it right and understanding what you are doing, I think there are a lot that get into it and just batter it with no thought other than get big quick.

 

jacko its forced into situations that may seem intimidating, but its due due to the nature of whats happeingin, theree generally no threatening or malicous behaviour

and remeber that guy got big bicause he ate the acorrect nutriton to support his growth. steroids don not make you grow, muscle is nt made from hormones , there made from muscle fibres which are amongst other things proteins.

youcan literally take mass amounts of steroids and if you dont eat accordingly, you will not yeild results

nutrition is all important

its why top bodybuilders would rather miss a training session, than miss a meal

 

I can't remember the last time I had to stop a contraceptive pill due to hypertension and then seeing an improvement in blood pressure afterwards, and the quality and volume of evidence for the safety of the contraceptive pill is not in any way seriously comparable with data available for androgenic steroids (can you show anything as impressive as an 80% reduction in ovarian malignancy?) Some contraceptive pills are more androgenic than others, but it is rare not to be able to find one on which women feel well, and your comparison with roid rage is not one I could agree with given the androgenic effect compared to androgenic steroids. There are so many undesirable effects from testosterone that society and the individual rarely benefits from more than is natural except in their own distorted body image. Given that, I cannot extend courtesy to the use of a controlled substance outwith the presciption and supervision by a practitioner licensed under the Medical Act prescribing it withing its licensed indications. It is a common for steroid users to mistrust medical professionals and feel they are misunderstood by the public. Some of that may be due to steroid induced paranoia, some may be that they have little insight into what they are really doing.

Adoption of supplementary testosterone for the so called male menopause hasn't caught on. I think we're worried about cardiovascular disease, lipids, glucose tolerance and prostate cancer. These are the big things we're fighting in men and it is androgens that contribute to their shorter life expectancy compared with women. I don't think it is a good idea to gain muscle mass around the left ventricle, and increases in red cell count are in men usually a risk for thromboembolism and premature death. Mobilisation of fat cells at the expense of increases in LDL are not what I would call massive health benefits. Not really looking like a serious contender for obesity treatment.

I find your link between nutrition and steroid use sporadic. You're using a controlled substance outwith its license and medical supervision and promoting it as a vehicle for positive health choices.

 

john please dont assume from my avatar im using any susbtance controlled or otherwise

thats an incorrect assumption.

for increasing muscle mass, more than natural levels are obvioulsy of benefit if that what the users wants.
ill repeat, sensible doses of supraphysiological levels of testosterone, are easily recovered from. providing the correct infromation is available, and thats my point, its generally not.

this whole country is a pretty poor health situation, due to years of poor infromation. combined with the availability of drugs like alcohol being legal through nothing more than history/tradition and socail acceptance - weve ended ended up where we are today

now i understnd your professional position and you could never condone anything against accepted medical practice. totally understandable.

but, and its a biggie!! this country has a pending serious problem with young and middle age people with serious side effects from excess alcohol consumption. liver scirricus, numerous cancers, strokes, cardiac problems, gynaecomastia, erectile dysfunction, fertiltiy issues, death through accicdents, blood poisioning, ect ect ect ect ect

all related to the lack of knowledge/understanding of a, nutrition, and b, they dont perceive alcohol as a drug.

persoanlly - even if you think its a skewed perspective id rather see young males take more of an interest in excersise, gain an understanding of nutrition and remove temselves from the ingrianed binge drinking culture, and all its associated health and social problems

and thats even if they choose to use testosterone.

dont get me wrong john i could list off every single possibe side effect from use/abuse - im not ignorant or stupid - there are risks and there well documented, but when compared to such a common alternative lyfestyle - what would you advocate? hypothetical question i know you cant answer

your mis-interpreting quite a lot of my points, possibly due to my wording in posts. apologies.

but id like to hear your list of the so many undesirable long term side effects, from sensible AAS use - and also the steroid paranoia?

for me that not a term ive come across before.

again john please dont mis-interperate any posts as argumentative - they are never intended that way, just as a discusssion

thanks

id add to that the reason there is limited evidence to support aas effects either way is because studies are unethical, and not permitted/justified in western medicine.

you can look back at the pinicale of all bodybuilding shows, the mr olympia, started in 1965, last year when i attended, every single winner from the veryfirst show was on stage - apart from governor arnold, due to political commitments - but he gave a live broadcast - this inclcuded 70-8- year old men - they hadnt died from cnacers/cardiac arrests ect - just coincedance?

 

What good quality, long term safety data (of the type that would convince a physician) is there to support your assertion that with correct information there is no long term excess of all cause mortality, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and prostate cancer?

What evidence is there to support your assertion that poor information is responsible for poor health?

I won't disagree about the problems of alcohol, but it doesn't mean we should support the use of a controlled substance because a susbtance which is more socially acceptable causes harm when used to excess. However, there is a J shaped risk associated with alcohol consumption, can you show the same with androgenic steroid use?

Because of copyright issues and ages of articles, sometimes it is difficult to produce abstracts or full text of relevant journals, but here are a few that back up my point that paranoia can be a side effect of androgenic steroid use. It shouldn't be surprising as it is just an extension of the less significant side effects that are well known.

Pope HG Jr, Kouri EM, Hudson JI. Effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on mood and aggression in normal men: A randomized controlled trial. Arch Gen Psychiatry 57(2):133–140, 2000.

Pope HG Jr, Katz DL. Affective and psychotic symptoms associated with anabolic steroid use. Am J Psychiatry 145(4):487–490, 1988.

 

I find your link between nutrition and steroid use sporadic.


john ill do my best to refrain now, as its probably boring and dragging on for everyone

i dont know if you wrote the above in haste?

but if thats truly your thoughts, its incrediblay insulting, degrading,dismissive and frankly the most incorrect thing you could say.

hoping its just a late nite error - because thats the EXACT reason people i know some have little faith in some mediacal advisors.

It displays a complete and utter lack of understanding on your part.

hopefully ive maybe taken it out of context?

 

jef, forgive me if I have this wrong. But I detest steriods of any sort. My brother is big on body building and he has what I call, extreme. He has the neck of a bull, if that makes sense. He has gone from great, like your avatar, to ugly, feakish. My Mum is worried sick about him as am I.
He has the most atrocious mood swings, how his wife puts up with him, is beyond me. I would have kicked him out months ago.
He swears he is not using steriods, but I know he is.
I don't take any pills of any description, not even for a headache. Nature finds a way

 

It was not written in haste and I'm happy to explore it more with you and my reasoning behind it.

What I'm getting at is that you are putting up your ideas as a paragon of nutritional goodness to fix the ill health of the country whilst oddly pairing it with the illegal use of controlled drugs outwith their license and outwith the prescription by a registered medical practitioner, when they are strongly associated with harm demonstrated by peer reviewed evidence based medical literature.

If I was being insulting, I would put it along the lines of an alcoholic patient telling me how I should treat drug users, but I did not and am not putting it that way.

As you are not a medical practitioner, you don't appreciate the wider implications of your statements which as I've shown above are misguided and dangerous. You've picked up bits of knowledge from biased sources and do not appear to have the skill to weigh quality medical evidence. This is the reason that the practice of medicine is protected by statute and why you need a lot of qualifications and time, even to be a dull GP that knows nothing about endocrinology

 

john do you really want me to rip your above quotes apart?

41 subjects?

1000mg of an undisclosed subsatnce?

my referance is to sensisble AAS cycles?

and has been all along?

the use of "may" all through articles is not cocnclusive. and never will be. its a get out clause - to prove a point usually in the publishers interests.

medical journal quotes hold absolute zero water - real life results reflect the truth, its seemingy apparant your not that exposed to that many invovled scenarios tbh.

i can go and goodgle a 100 quotes to prove and also disprove both sides of the veiwpoint

 

You're not ripping very well.

Some people that don't understand medical literature think they can just look at a number of people in a study and then dismiss it. Of course having done a four week block on epidemiology and literature criticism and published my own research with a similar number I know that you can show statistical significance to quantitative work on a small sample size when the effect is strong enough as it is in this case.

Show the long term, quality, independent safety data on your (undefined) sensisble (sic) cycles and I will give way.

May is not a get out clause as you would realise when you read medical literature.

"Real life results" whilst ignoring the scientific method is thankfully not the way quality decisions are made. Even a GP's medical training recognises that. Otherwise we would be in the whims of homeopathy and other nonsense.

You can google all day long, but until you learn scientific method and interpretation of medical literature you'll just be another unqualified opinion.

 

no prob lee

every person is entitled to there own veiws mate - theres a phrase knocks around "if your dick before you take steroids, chances are youll end up more of a dick when on them" its not applicable to everyone - but test can certainly accentuate undesirable effects. but chances are your brother hasnt had a full explanation of possible side effects - and if he understood more its easier to aleiviate and even elimate irrational effects. knowledge is power

and thats my whole point from post 1 - education, and the severe lack of accurate info available.

i feel certin if i could talk to him, i could make him understnd the processes that are happening and how to mangae them more effectivley. im no guru but often a simple explanation is all that it takes. sometimes its not - and these individuals simply have to realise there throwing away anything precious they my have.

more info can mbe given if required - again and again and again its the lack of education and understding that leads to problems