Twin scroll turbo upgrade MD321 billet or SC42 billet or LM420 billet?
22 November 2012, 01:15 PM
#151
Scooby Regular
OK, we did some more work on the mapping yesterday and also found why we lost power with increased boost.
The OEM dump valve wasn't sealing fully it appears, which would have been feeding hot air back into the turbo inlet. So we fitted a Forge recirculating dump valve and did another mapping session on the road.
It instantly picked up 0.25BAR and sharpened up the response even more, so after mapping the car and spending a bit of time fine tuning the cruise AFR's etc. now the pressure of time had gone for the sprints i was doing we have achieved the following.
Power of 473 BHP, Torque of 540 FtLb !
Power and Torque
Power and Boost
The engine knocked a bit of timing out at the top end on the rollers, it doesn't on the road. This is a road mapped car, there is no attempt to optimise the engine for the rollers. It looks like on the road it's producing 490 BHP
That'll do!
The OEM dump valve wasn't sealing fully it appears, which would have been feeding hot air back into the turbo inlet. So we fitted a Forge recirculating dump valve and did another mapping session on the road.
It instantly picked up 0.25BAR and sharpened up the response even more, so after mapping the car and spending a bit of time fine tuning the cruise AFR's etc. now the pressure of time had gone for the sprints i was doing we have achieved the following.
Power of 473 BHP, Torque of 540 FtLb !
Power and Torque
Power and Boost
The engine knocked a bit of timing out at the top end on the rollers, it doesn't on the road. This is a road mapped car, there is no attempt to optimise the engine for the rollers. It looks like on the road it's producing 490 BHP
That'll do!
22 November 2012, 03:01 PM
#152
The power curve is like a picnic table.
Do you have any graphs of this turbo on a bone-stock 2.0L? I remember you said Paulo Spec C was running this set up on a stock engine, I'd love to see the data from that.
Do you have any graphs of this turbo on a bone-stock 2.0L? I remember you said Paulo Spec C was running this set up on a stock engine, I'd love to see the data from that.
22 November 2012, 06:41 PM
#153
Yes, this is on 80% V-power 20% Meth, i have it mapped also at 10% Meth which is what i'll be using as my road map for the majority of the time. I havn't done a dyno run on 10% yet as i need to run the fuel down post mapping, but it feels very impressive on that mix too, when i have done some dyno runs on 10% i'll update the info.
Just checking my Delta Dash Road Dyno info and it looks like its over 500BHP on the road.
Road dyno in 4th gear shows
Maximum Wheel Power: 418.5 BHP @ 7344 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 438.7 LbFt @ 4271 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 263.2 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 204.7 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.9 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.6 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.7 seconds
70 - 90mph = 2.0 seconds
80 -100mph = 2.3 seconds
The car is a full weight JDM STi, with me onboard plus some fuel in the cans i was carrying it added up to 1590kg for the run. Charge temps on the road were lower than on the rollers at 13 degrees C, on Charlies rollers the run started at 18 degrees C.
22 November 2012, 07:29 PM
#155
Scooby Regular
John,
As I said on the text messages last night, very well done to you and everyone involved. Your results are certainly stunning.
When having the opportunity to rebuild the engine, increase the capacity and choosing to use higher comp. ratios, coupled with a well matched turbo and higher octane fuels.... really goes to show how you can end up with a great package and supporting results. I'm genuinely chuffed for you mate and all concerned.
That is some healthy boost you're running and something I'm jealous of your ability to do that. Them's are the breaks with sticking with the OEM engine though I suspect for me and conservation for sakes of reliability. I can't have my cake and eat it I suppose.... well not to the point of being over indulgent.
Your lowdown grunt is simply awesome and exactly what a twinscroll should be doing.
Personally I wouldn't read too much into your road dyno, dyno results imo. With the road dyno "reported" peaks (388/382) on my set-up without meth I may add, it gave the following repeatable acceleration report.
40 - 60mph = 2.3s
50 - 70mph = 1.9s
60 - 80mph = 1.8s
70 - 90mph = 2.0s
80 -100mph = 2.3s
Assuming your set-up is producing 500+bhp I would expect your top end acceleration to be quicker than mine, which seems strange that it isn't. Although you're (personally) a heavy weight compared to me though! You sure you didn't have your handbrake on!
I will have to get back out and do some (acceleration) runs on my Meth map to compare. I would hope to better my previous acceleration runs by some margin.
I always think that something like an acceleration run gives a very good indication of how that power is being seen where it counts. Dyno graphs only show an indication as we all appreciate.
It's a pity you couldn't get an absolute run on the dyno, but tbh is only expected at this level on a TMIC, when you don't have direct and plentiful airflow to the TMIC on the SRR dyno. PowerStation's RR is perfect for this, but obviously a totally different dyno so not much use for comparison. In any case your set-up obviously works very very well so any further comparison of dyno data is a mute point to a degree.
Well done and a I look forward to a ride!
It would certainly be very very interesting to see the OEM 2ltr result. That should provide better context to us OEM boys, as your current set-up is quite a bit better than OEM.
As I said on the text messages last night, very well done to you and everyone involved. Your results are certainly stunning.
When having the opportunity to rebuild the engine, increase the capacity and choosing to use higher comp. ratios, coupled with a well matched turbo and higher octane fuels.... really goes to show how you can end up with a great package and supporting results.
I'm genuinely chuffed for you mate and all concerned.That is some healthy boost you're running and something I'm jealous of your ability to do that. Them's are the breaks with sticking with the OEM engine though I suspect for me and conservation for sakes of reliability. I can't have my cake and eat it I suppose.... well not to the point of being over indulgent.
Your lowdown grunt is simply awesome and exactly what a twinscroll should be doing.
Personally I wouldn't read too much into your road dyno, dyno results imo. With the road dyno "reported" peaks (388/382) on my set-up without meth I may add, it gave the following repeatable acceleration report.
40 - 60mph = 2.3s
50 - 70mph = 1.9s
60 - 80mph = 1.8s
70 - 90mph = 2.0s
80 -100mph = 2.3s
Assuming your set-up is producing 500+bhp I would expect your top end acceleration to be quicker than mine, which seems strange that it isn't. Although you're (personally) a heavy weight compared to me though!
You sure you didn't have your handbrake on! I will have to get back out and do some (acceleration) runs on my Meth map to compare. I would hope to better my previous acceleration runs by some margin.
I always think that something like an acceleration run gives a very good indication of how that power is being seen where it counts. Dyno graphs only show an indication as we all appreciate.
It's a pity you couldn't get an absolute run on the dyno, but tbh is only expected at this level on a TMIC, when you don't have direct and plentiful airflow to the TMIC on the SRR dyno. PowerStation's RR is perfect for this, but obviously a totally different dyno so not much use for comparison. In any case your set-up obviously works very very well so any further comparison of dyno data is a mute point to a degree.
Well done and a I look forward to a ride!
It would certainly be very very interesting to see the OEM 2ltr result. That should provide better context to us OEM boys, as your current set-up is quite a bit better than OEM.
22 November 2012, 07:42 PM
#156
Not sure what Pauls Spec C is producing, it was mapped just to be ready for the 22B/MLR sprint finale at about 1.5BAR, that was good enough to win S2 class and finish 10th overall including all the top EVO's.
No doubt more info will be available soon on the stock engine.
The target for me and brief i gave Owen Developments was to give me a 450/450 turbo that matched the spool of the stock VF37. It looks like i have 500/540 with the spool of a VF37, thats pretty bonkers.
Above 6500rpm isn't that important, i'll be changing up a gear then, with torque like this you really dont rev it hard, the upper rpm acceleration in 4th is just there because i reved it for info purposes, i'd be in 5th and gone by then in reality.
No doubt more info will be available soon on the stock engine.
The target for me and brief i gave Owen Developments was to give me a 450/450 turbo that matched the spool of the stock VF37. It looks like i have 500/540 with the spool of a VF37, thats pretty bonkers.
Above 6500rpm isn't that important, i'll be changing up a gear then, with torque like this you really dont rev it hard, the upper rpm acceleration in 4th is just there because i reved it for info purposes, i'd be in 5th and gone by then in reality.
Last edited by johnfelstead; 22 November 2012 at 07:44 PM.
22 November 2012, 08:04 PM
#158
Yes, it's stunning as a road car, 6th gear acceleration from cruise speed is mighty impressive. It's always hard to convey drivabilty with dyno plots, on the road most driving is done in the 3K to 4K rpm range, to be able to not need to change gear to accelerate hard makes it such a nice road car for daily driving, if you feel like waking things up a bit and stiring the gears you can go into serious acceleration mode. The best of both worlds.
22 November 2012, 08:16 PM
#160
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Awesome figures John!
I'll seriously be thinking about this new Owen turbo on my 2.35 build.
Although, I take it i'd need a full twin scroll twisted system?
I'll seriously be thinking about this new Owen turbo on my 2.35 build.
Although, I take it i'd need a full twin scroll twisted system?
22 November 2012, 08:21 PM
#161
No plans to do anything else now Shaun, apart from do some fine tuning with regards to the 4BAR MAP sensor quirk you get with MegaRom (idle speed drifts up a bit). Bob has a few ideas on that we will try when he gets time.
Race fuel is too expensive, also not allowed in my class in the sprints, so would be a waste of time and money to mess with.
Race fuel is too expensive, also not allowed in my class in the sprints, so would be a waste of time and money to mess with.
22 November 2012, 08:23 PM
#162
I am on completely stock JDM Twinscroll headers, with the off the shelf Milltek 3" exhaust system they sell for the JDM Twin Scroll cars. It's a genuine bolt on stock position turbo.
22 November 2012, 09:11 PM
#163
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Brilliant result John.......job done....now you can relax with your pheasant cooked,feet up ready for next year has this been run on a 2 ltr yet ?? if so do you know how it performed I cant remember if paulo stopped with the stock engine after his other one failed maybe you can enlighten me
has this been run on a 2 ltr yet ?? if so do you know how it performed I cant remember if paulo stopped with the stock engine after his other one failed maybe you can enlighten me
22 November 2012, 09:24 PM
#164
Paulo was running the same spec turbo as mine at Teeside, he ran a slightly smaller compressor wheel version at Castle Combe, both times on a stock 2.0 Spec C engine. He won the S2 class at both rounds.
I think he was only running 1.5BAR at Teeside, not sure what his plans are now with regards to the engine for next year, but he was very happy with the turbo.
I think he was only running 1.5BAR at Teeside, not sure what his plans are now with regards to the engine for next year, but he was very happy with the turbo.
23 November 2012, 07:00 PM
#166
These are road dyno logs for my car comparing the VF37 stock turbo with my current Owen Developments turbo, both on my 2.1 engine.
The VF37 logs were taken when i was running a 33% mix of Q16 race fuel with 66% V-Power, so fairly good comparison to running a Meth mix.
Power/Torque comparison
Accelerative power comparison
Vehicle acceleration
As you can see, i've lost nothing at the bottom end, but have huge gains everywhere else. This is what i was trying to achieve, i didn't want to compromise the bottom end spool or drivability of the stock Twin Scroll turbo, which is what is so stunning about the JDM STi's.
The VF37 logs were taken when i was running a 33% mix of Q16 race fuel with 66% V-Power, so fairly good comparison to running a Meth mix.
Power/Torque comparison
Accelerative power comparison
Vehicle acceleration
As you can see, i've lost nothing at the bottom end, but have huge gains everywhere else. This is what i was trying to achieve, i didn't want to compromise the bottom end spool or drivability of the stock Twin Scroll turbo, which is what is so stunning about the JDM STi's.
25 November 2012, 11:45 PM
#167
Your lowdown grunt is simply awesome and exactly what a twinscroll should be doing.
Personally I wouldn't read too much into your road dyno, dyno results imo. With the road dyno "reported" peaks (388/382) on my set-up without meth I may add, it gave the following repeatable acceleration report.
40 - 60mph = 2.3s
50 - 70mph = 1.9s
60 - 80mph = 1.8s
70 - 90mph = 2.0s
80 -100mph = 2.3s
Assuming your set-up is producing 500+bhp I would expect your top end acceleration to be quicker than mine, which seems strange that it isn't. Although you're (personally) a heavy weight compared to me though!
You sure you didn't have your handbrake on! I will have to get back out and do some (acceleration) runs on my Meth map to compare. I would hope to better my previous acceleration runs by some margin.
I always think that something like an acceleration run gives a very good indication of how that power is being seen where it counts. Dyno graphs only show an indication as we all appreciate.
Maximum Wheel Power: 404.9 BHP @ 4945 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 463.3 LbFt @ 4213 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 262.9 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 202.5 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.7 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.5 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.6 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.9 seconds
Maximum Wheel Power: 414.4 BHP @ 6170 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 456.4 LbFt @ 4455 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 269.1 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 204.1 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.8 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.5 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.6 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.8 seconds
Sorry, i missed your comment earlier Martyn, Thanks, very happy with it.
Last edited by johnfelstead; 26 November 2012 at 12:41 AM.
Be good to see (a hopeful) improvement.
27 November 2012, 12:02 AM
#169
01 December 2012, 10:55 PM
#171
Just done another run, this time on the 10% Meth road map, surprised how little performance it lost, it seems to spool even quicker, as expected it's lost some mid range torque as we ramped the boost level down a bit. Better than i expected to be honest. First run i had a bit of heat soak in the IC whilst setting up the laptop, so charge temp was 8 degrees, 2nd run charge temp was 2 degrees. Previous 20% mix runs CT was 13 and 12 degrees as ambients were higher.
Maximum Wheel Power: 401.6 BHP @ 6409 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 422.0 LbFt @ 4173 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 260.8 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 202.0 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.8 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.6 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.7 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.9 seconds
Maximum Wheel Power: 423.3 BHP @ 6064 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 452.4 LbFt @ 3801 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 274.9 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 205.5 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.7 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.5 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.7 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.8 seconds
Maximum Wheel Power: 401.6 BHP @ 6409 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 422.0 LbFt @ 4173 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 260.8 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 202.0 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.8 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.6 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.7 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.9 seconds
Maximum Wheel Power: 423.3 BHP @ 6064 RPM
Maximum Wheel Torque: 452.4 LbFt @ 3801 RPM
Power to weight ratio: 274.9 BHP per ton
Terminal velocity due to power: 205.5 mph
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 1.7 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.5 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.7 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.8 seconds
03 December 2012, 01:38 AM
#172
Is this fancy new Owen Developments turbo available in good old fashioned single scroll version?
Fancy something for my 2009 hatch STi 2.5l, was looking at SC46, heard the MDX321 ( which one!) spooled better for same power, now this!
Cheers
Fancy something for my 2009 hatch STi 2.5l, was looking at SC46, heard the MDX321 ( which one!) spooled better for same power, now this!
Cheers
03 December 2012, 07:51 AM
#173
Scooby Regular
AFAIK, nobody out there has actually ran both turbos back to back, so they are basing their experience on an opinion.
The SC46 single scroll is nothing short of amazing on a Hatch.
This one is running a built engine on a 16% meth mix.
03 December 2012, 08:58 AM
#175
Scooby Regular
That has amazing figures Martyn.It looks to spool much better than a stock Oem turbo and give much more top end.I guess this has more compression than stock though
03 December 2012, 12:04 PM
#176
Scooby Regular
03 December 2012, 01:51 PM
#179
03 December 2012, 02:36 PM
#180
Scooby Regular
Lol I bet that car must be faster than a 2.1 with a gt30 billet rotated both using meth down the quarter mile mostly due the much more power it has down low.I suspect that this makes very low 11's or high 10's quarter mile time.You always seem to amaze me with your dyno graphs Marytn.Keep the good work up