captain_anonymous_2003

haha.. No.. I am only on one other forum at the moment when it comes to cars and for quite some time I knew nothing about oil until I had a lengthy discussion about it realising my false assumptions and also a lot of reading of the information available. It took me a while then to decide what I'd use for my car. I think 5W-40 is a sensible choice for most, maybe try it in the legacy see how it goes?

captain_anonymous_2003

I've answered their questions Tony, perhaps you should check up again and have another read.

Like I said you can put what you want in your car it really makes no difference to me. But when an oil supplier tells you that 15W-50 isn't a great choice for a car that you don't track you still ignore him, when I point out the difference in thickness and explain how lubrication actually works and how there is a phyiscal and documented (in respectable scientic journals) relationship between flow and lubrication you still ignore them.

It's a fact, a 15W oil is far worse for engine wear at start due to it's very high thickness at low temperature when compared to a 0W or 5W. If you disagree with that then you're just staring facts in the face putting your fingers in your ears closing your eyes and going "la la la la la laaaa can't hear or see yooouuuuu so ner ner ne ner ner".. and that would be enough for anyone with any sense to completely ignore any advice that you offer on the subject of oil I would hope.

If you mechanic agrees with you, and he's on the forum I'd be happy to talk to him too.

You are just upset and angry because I am suggesting your choice might be less than ideal. You can't justify why it is, I have given you several reasons and explained the physical principles why it is not. So where does that leave us? I am not going to stoop to name calling, I just hope that anyone reading can see the whole picture and not the dogma.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

This chart is a great illustration of the differences between the multitude of oil grades available to today at various temperatures. The measure is cst (centistokes) which indicates the thickness and is measured through flow. A great example is that a 15w-50 is around 300% thicker than a 5w-30 at 0degC (two grades that are often used in Imprezas)

https://docs.google.com/View?id=dfjpbcch_2fkd395ck

That helps to show the changes in flow rates, and you can see that a thinner will get around the engine a lot faster from cold.

Cheers

Tim

fastmike

iTrader: (4)

ok.... I,m a Ford Tech.....Used to be found around head office in Warley or out in the field on a tech querie... or building Ford Rally engines..theres NO WAY , I,de put a 0 grade anything in any engine used in the UK in ANY season.Lets think about this a second.....your engines HOT...yes HOT...it then cools, thin oil runs out either side of the con rods (cos its so thin when cold) even the oil retained in the crank webs runs out... SO for a second or two after start up from COLD... the crank bearings are without lube... Now.... a thicker (10 grade @ cold) oil will be retained in the crank webs and wont so readily drain out of the sides of the con rods ( or main bearing caps).
^^^ none of that is theory..... its a fact I,ve experienced many times were a low viscosity when cold oil has been used in an engine

oilman

iTrader: (9)

You can get around that by using an ester based quality oil, rather than relying on thick oil to hold it in place

captain_anonymous_2003

Oh I give up... For starters I have no idea what are you talking about, and what I do understand makes no sense at all? Are you saying that if the oil is a lower weight after shutdown the lower weight oil doesn't hang around where as the higher weight does? That is nonsense I am sorry.

Yes the engine is hot so at that time the viscosity of pretty much all oils are in the range of 10mm^2/s to 20mm^2/s... That's a fact... So immediately after shutdown and probably for a good 20 minutes or more they are pretty much the same. The thinner weight will stabilise at say 70mm^2/s and the thicker at say 120mm^2/s... AFTER QUITE A BIT OF TIME! The 10 - 20 minutes it'll take to cool down to a point where they are significant any seeping will have well since happened. I am sorry your arguement is completely flawed and I would like to see evidence that supports your remarks.

What you are telling people is that when you shut the engine down, both oils hang around until they've cooled and only then do they start to seep down. Really!?? How on earth can that be true!? What both oils wait.. and think "hang on a minute! I'm not going to go anywhere till I've cooled down to room temp thank you very much.." Of course not.. this is utterly ridiculous and I question your knowledge on this subject massively. Just because someone builds engines doesn't mean they understand oil I am sorry. And there is nothing that supports your 'observations'.

Let's think about the restart, at cold the thicker oil won't get as high a flow to supply the engine as a thinner weight. So actually your argument falls over AGAIN. Not only do both oils flow out when the engine is shutdown and pretty much the same rate since they're at roughly the same viscosity, but when the engine restarts from cold the thicker can't supply as fast!

A 0W oil is perfectly acceptable for use in teh majority of UK engines any time of year. I am sure Mobil, Shell, Fuchs, Castrol and any other manufacturer would agree.

captain_anonymous_2003

Agreed, if he's talking about oil retension on surfaces and not seepage. There are a lot of technologies within synthetics that prevent this from happening, regardless of weight.

fastmike

iTrader: (4)

Theres none so blind as those that wont see

captain_anonymous_2003

But seriously that's not a sensible thing to say. Write to Castrol or Shell and ask them their expert opinion, and I am sure they will have a vastly different view. You are refering to an issue that went away with mineral oils.

The only problem I've seen with SOME 0W is the consumption some engines have of the stuff. It's a pain but it doesn't mean the oil isn't doing it's job.

I refer you to the following:

"The Esters have a property which makes them "stick" to surfaces and create a film under non-dynamic conditions. Normal dinosaur oils and bearings require motion to create and maintain the oil film [mineral oils]. The Esters have a property by which they create a film even in a static state. What this effectively means is that even at start-up or after long (indefinite) periods of storage there will be an oil film on the critical wear surfaces of the engine (and we all know that this is when most engine wear occurs)."

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Oh and FORDS "sole" recommendation for the awesome and highly tuned RS FOCUS is.....

YEP

Castrol 0w-40!



Cheers

captain_anonymous_2003

Hilarious!

fastmike

iTrader: (4)

lol , that must be the ONLY engine with that recomendation in the UK .

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Yet craig you still have not introduced ambient temps to the equasion

Lets put it this way, at 15 deg c a 5w oil is great, a 15w isnt as good but still provides lubrication, it will take longer to warm up though.
At 35 deg c I would rather be running that 15w than that 5w due to the external temperatures.
If you think we are totally stupid then go away and dont come back please, all you have waffled on about is that if you dont use a 0w oil in your car the wear on your engine will be stupidly excessive and you will wear your engine out.
Still you dont know what power most peoples cars are pushing or why a 0w oil isnt used by subaru on their flat 4 configuration, nice to say some oils are better than others, we already know that, and nice to say that you use x oil for y application, we already know that, not nice to say "you lot are all ignorant and should be shot, you must use a 0w30 oil" which is plain stupid in a subaru, especially one that predates 2000.

Have a nice day

Tony

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Nope, the new Skyline R35 GTR sole specified oil for warranty purposes is the Mobil 1 0w-40, which is also the most popular oil for most modern Porsches and Mercs (including AMG), as well as being a very popular oil in other cars such as BMWs.

It's the only UK Ford that recommends a 0w oil, the rest use a 5w-30, apart from the GT40, which uses a 5w-50. Note that none of those cars recommend anything thicker than a 5w.

Cheers

Tim

captain_anonymous_2003

double post...

captain_anonymous_2003

Was your car built in the last two decades? If so I imagine like most modern cars it has a water cooling system that functions under pressure. I don't know about your car but my car can sit in traffic all day long with the engine running and not overheat. If it started to there would be a problem with the cooling system, e.g. my fan is broken, there is a leak, flow restriction and so on, there are no problems the car is immaculately maintained.

Even in winter my car temp races up to operating temperature as fast as it can given the starting temperature and the cooling system maintains that once it is reached. Even in winter and motorway crusing my coolant temp is at or above 79C once warm.

Correct.


Is your car really that sensitive to ambient temperature!? It shouldn't be, I suggest you get your cooling system looked at if it is. Besides this is wrong.

At 35C your 15W oil is still too thick, 125 mm^2/s @ 40, where as the 0W is 70 mm^2/s at the same temperature. BOTH even at this ambient temperature are too thick, the target thickness is 15 mm^2/s remember?

So why is the 15W still better!? That makes no sense whatsoever. Cars run at a temperature much higher than 35C so how is this even relevant!?

And besides, summer is the best time! It's winter we're most worried, where all oils will struggle. However on the scale of it 15W will be a significant order of magnitude worse than a 0W.


Incorrect; You're not reading what I have put and are trying undermime me. I have said (and will maintain) that for some applications like racing or for engines that experience high temperatures and hard driving far more frequently than cold starts a 15W-50 oil is a good choice. However for town driving the occasional blat and temperatures that are relatively average, it's not a good choice.

I have CONTINUOUSLY STRESSED the following:

WHEN MAKING AN OIL CHOICE FOR YOUR VEHICLE CONSIDER THE OPERATING CONDITIONS OF AN ENGINE. DO NOT LISTEN TO BLANKET RECOMMENDATIONS, USE U.O.A.'S AND ALL AVAILABLE DATA TO MAKE A SELECTION.

I have not said anything of the kind, I my view you're trying to justify your own choice and you're angry with me because you might be questioning it based on what I've said. That's not my fault. I am not pushing any oil on anyone, I am defending 0W oils from unfair scrutiny because it's unfounded. I have no made a single recommendation to anyone on oil choice as I don't know about their operating conditions. You however seem intent on justifying yours and forcing it on others. I would urge people to ignore this and make their own decisions based on real information.

And Tony I am not making this personal with anyone, so far you've insulted my education (which incidentally you know nothing about) and me. And yet you're not capable of coming up with any good reason to doubt what I've said.

captain_anonymous_2003

Tim if I were you I'd stop stocking 0W's... no one wants them you know.. they're rubbish

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

All cooling systems are pressurised, and what has the temperature of the coolant have to do with the temperature of the oil its not even an accurate measurement of how quickly the oil warms up, it may take 2 miles of motorway driving from the off for the coolant in the system to hit its optimal temp, it could take 10 miles for the oil to do the same on a cold day.


Again, water takes the heat from the block, it does not show that the oil is at the same temperature.

And Im not arguing that point, BUT there is nothing wrong with that oil on a HIGH MILEAGE car like the OP has where the tolerences have probably increased and a thicker cold rate would be slightly more suitable, and who in a subaru doesnt give it stick?

Yes you have, and I also stated to the OP that there is nothing wrong with a 15w50 for his car but I would change it for a thinner oil for winter
Also there is more than one recommendation from the manufacturer, these rate (model and year dependent) between a 5 to 20 cold weight oil and from a 30 to 50 hot weight.
On certain models they even have a large warning in the handbook about the use of 5w30 oil for normal driving, it expressly points to the use in extreme temperatures but not to use "excessive revs" (or words there of).



Do you know what oil I have in my car?


And yet this weight oil have been known to cause issues with this engine layout, which you seem to be ignoring.


Well am I not correct and you are a graduate? Yet you still seem to want to throw 0w oils at us when time and again we keep telling you why we dont use 0w oils so if your offended, then sorry, BUT you seem to like calling me ignorant of the fact, do you have any idea what I do for a living???

Tony

captain_anonymous_2003

The cooling system is what regulates the operating temperature of your engine. Your oil also provides a cooling function. The ambient temperature is irrelevant. At 40C no oil is thin enough to provide adequate lubrication to your engine. Do you dispute this fact?

Water is not the only cooling your car has, your oil is also a coolant. Oil functions as both a lubricant and coolant. I still fail to see how the ambient temperature in summer has any bearing on your oil choice/advocation of 15W. You've not explained this.

Again (and I am getting tired of repeating myself) either address this fact or we can't continue:

15W-50 = 125 mm^2/s @ 40C
0W-40 = 70 mm^2/s @ 40C

40C is a lot higher than any ambient temp you're likely to get in the UK wouldn't you agree?

How on earth is that 15W good for cold starts? BOTH these oils are too thick. If you want thick put anything in cold and it's too thick. There is no such thing as an oil that is 'too thin' when cold! I don't understand how you don't see this!?

15 mm^2/s is your target, that is what your oil viscosity is during normal warmed up conditions. Do you dispute this fact?

125 and 70 are MUCH higher than 15, do you dispute this? Yet you continue to talk about how you need a thicker oil? What are you talking about!? They are both too thick, both are way higher than 15!! Let's look at operating.

15W-50 = 17 mm^2/s @ 100C
0W-40 = 14 mm^2/s @ 100C

Both oils have pretty much the SAME thickness at operating temperature! Do you see now? What on earth is the advantage for an average every day driver to 15W-50!? This is for race applications to prevent shear at VERY high temperatures (around 125C) which most engines never experience!

So at operating they are the same, but at cold start the 15W is horrendous. Either address this or I will simply ignore future posts from you. You seem to have difficulty with this and I don't understand how I can explain this any simpler. Both oils are too thick when cold, one is thicker than the other, both oils are roughly the same thickness when at operating temperature.

I think you use 10W-40? Either that or probably 10W- or 15W-50. For applications for an every day driver I'd still go down to a 5W as it's better for cold starts.

I would like to see hard evidence that supports your claim that 0W oils are terrible for these engines, if they are then the reasons must filter through to all kinds of engines out there including mine. I find it hard to believe though since both a 0W-40 and 10W-40 have the same thickness at operating temperature. They both get thinner to the same goal, it's like a target. 130 and GO... 129.. 128.. 127... and eventually BINGO.. perfect.. 15 .... And yet you seem to think starting at a higher number is more beneficial? How is this the case? Look:

15W-50
125... 124.... 123.... 122.. n.... some more n..... 15 sorted

0W-40
70.... 69.... 68..... n... 15.. sorted

That is about as simple as I can make it. I imagine that bearing failures are often due to hard driving and oil choices which are unappropriate for the driving the cars experience. Racing a car on a 0W-40 for example, over extended periods this could cause excessive wear I agree, but I am assuming normal driving conditions and the occasional blat.

I'm not forcing you to use a 0W at all.. I am simply defending their use against scrutiny that has no foundation.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

I know Weird though that we're about to get 2 more 0w oils in, a 0w-40 for the RS focus and a 0w-30 specifically aimed at the new Subaru diesels. Yeah, I know a Subaru diesel isn't really a proper Subaru, but it is a boxer engine

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

IIRC Used Oil Analysis will work for something like an aircraft engine where all the components are OEM and rigorously quality assured.....................Not sure if UOA would be of any use with the mixed bag of stuff we throw in our flat fours

You aren't an aero engineer by any chance ??

Shaun

captain_anonymous_2003

No I am not an aero engineer. I am glad you're thinking about UOAs, I would urge you to conduct one on your next change (don't necessarily change oil type at this point though, wait for the results first to inform your next change). The data will be useful to you, it will provide you with information about the metal content (helps you assess wear) and also things like the current viscosity of the oil you've taken out at 40C and 100C. This is great because you can see if your original oil has degraded or maintained its integrity. If it's maintained it very well, and contimants through cleaning and engine metals are very low, then you might think.. 'hmmm am I changing too regularly?' It will really help and I am sure if they are willing when you go to select your next oil, talk through your results with the lab and discuss them with a knowledgeable oil supplier. You'll get better and better results and maximise your engine life

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Ah...... But to know the metal content of the oil I'd need to know the exact metalurgy of all the metals which come in contact with the oil.......as I said this would be doable for a closely monitored Textron / lycoming but not for my car

I havn't a clue what's exactly inside my engine LOL

Shaun

captain_anonymous_2003

Oh come on don't be defeatist lol..

Chronium usually for piston rings of plate bores
Aluminium caused by piston or bearing wear
Copper might come from lead bearings, oil coolers, pipework
Lead usually from lead/tin bearings (white metal) or copper/lead main and big end bearings.
Tin from lead/tin or aluminimum/tin bearings.
Nickel used as an alloy in steel components
Silicon normally from sand/clay or dust getting into the engine from the air filtration system (how well are your air filters doing their job? )
Boron used either as an additive in antifreeze or as an extreme pressure additive in some oil blends.

Calcium, phosphorus , zinc, magnesium and barium are used in the manufacture of lubricants.

That a good start for 10?

trogg

So am I ok to use 0w 40 Mobile 1 in my engine or not?

(unmodified, 90k mls, UK Turbo)

Running around 5-10 miles e/way and the odd skelp at the weekends, maybe one track-day a year.

captain_anonymous_2003

I am not going to get into the habit of making recommendations for oils to forum users. I have already had PM messages that are similar. I have given you the tools to make your choice based on your engine and driving style. My starting point would be a UOA. They are £30 folks, and once you're sorted you'll have to do them far less frequently.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

I do make recommendations on all kinds of forums, so I'll give you an answer.

In a newage, unmodified impreza, I would say the 0w-40 would be fine, but in modifed cars or classics, I wouldn't use it as it can be consumed fairly quickly and can be quite noisy. A 5w-40 would be preferable, or even a 10w-40 if the noise really bothers you

captain_anonymous_2003

There ya go! Seems quite reasonable to me.

trogg

Thanks oilman, I noted you mentioned it could be noisey in an earlier post.

5 or 10 it is then.

captain_anonymous_2003

I know this is off topic, but out of interest Tim, what has your experience been with 5W-30 use on E39 M5s?