bmw 330d
15 February 2009, 06:52 PM
#123
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your almost there with that analogy, but missing some huge facts, like RPM. it's all well and good quoting torque figures but without context it is meaningless, torque and work done (bhp) are 2 variations of the same thing when it comes to an engine, this is the most simplest way of describing it, and it clearly explains why F1 cars are so quick with so little torque.
one man shovelling sand into a wheelbarrow with a spade 1ft long lifts 20lb/s of sand per spade and 1 spade full every 10seconds goes into the wheelbarrow, he cannot shovel any faster than this (diesel). 120ft/lbs at his peak spade per minute (rpm).
another man doing a similar job is with the same spade is fitting 10lb/s of sand per spade but every 5seconds, also 120ft/lbs (petrol).
so although the heavier spade appears to be doing the most work, the end result is the spade which is half as full accomplishes the task in the same time.
so, put simply, your 400ft/lbs at 2000rpm is 200ft/lbs at 4000rpm or 100ft/lbs at 8000rpm or 50ft/lbs at 16000 rpm. get it now?
one man shovelling sand into a wheelbarrow with a spade 1ft long lifts 20lb/s of sand per spade and 1 spade full every 10seconds goes into the wheelbarrow, he cannot shovel any faster than this (diesel). 120ft/lbs at his peak spade per minute (rpm).
another man doing a similar job is with the same spade is fitting 10lb/s of sand per spade but every 5seconds, also 120ft/lbs (petrol).
so although the heavier spade appears to be doing the most work, the end result is the spade which is half as full accomplishes the task in the same time.
so, put simply, your 400ft/lbs at 2000rpm is 200ft/lbs at 4000rpm or 100ft/lbs at 8000rpm or 50ft/lbs at 16000 rpm. get it now?
It seems to me that you are talking about work done (as stated, BHP) and not the rate in which the work is done which is what torque is, BHP is how much work at the end of a given cycle is done, while torque is how fast at which that work is done.
My analogy is quite appropriate in simplistic terms, I have not factored in the gear ratio's or frictional losses to make it simple.
BHP was introduced as an easy way to show your average farmer (who knew how much work a horse could do in a day) how much work his tractor could do in a day - for instance.
Torque would show the same farmer how quick the same horse does the same work.
If our horse could plough a 10 acre field in 1 day - that would be one horse powers worth of work, per day. If our hero horse did the same field in half a day (but had no more to give after cos he was very tired) that would be better torque for the same horse power
i think 
15 February 2009, 09:42 PM
#124
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16 February 2009, 01:18 AM
#126
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You'll struggle to find an Impreza with JUST a remap I think.. most people will at a minimum fit a de-cat/sports cat with exhaust, filter and fuel pump.
Cheers,
Grant
Cheers,
Grant
16 February 2009, 06:38 PM
#127
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I'm sorry but i have to disagree with this.
It seems to me that you are talking about work done (as stated, BHP) and not the rate in which the work is done which is what torque is, BHP is how much work at the end of a given cycle is done, while torque is how fast at which that work is done.
My analogy is quite appropriate in simplistic terms, I have not factored in the gear ratio's or frictional losses to make it simple.
BHP was introduced as an easy way to show your average farmer (who knew how much work a horse could do in a day) how much work his tractor could do in a day - for instance.
Torque would show the same farmer how quick the same horse does the same work.
If our horse could plough a 10 acre field in 1 day - that would be one horse powers worth of work, per day. If our hero horse did the same field in half a day (but had no more to give after cos he was very tired) that would be better torque for the same horse power i think
It seems to me that you are talking about work done (as stated, BHP) and not the rate in which the work is done which is what torque is, BHP is how much work at the end of a given cycle is done, while torque is how fast at which that work is done.
My analogy is quite appropriate in simplistic terms, I have not factored in the gear ratio's or frictional losses to make it simple.
BHP was introduced as an easy way to show your average farmer (who knew how much work a horse could do in a day) how much work his tractor could do in a day - for instance.
Torque would show the same farmer how quick the same horse does the same work.
If our horse could plough a 10 acre field in 1 day - that would be one horse powers worth of work, per day. If our hero horse did the same field in half a day (but had no more to give after cos he was very tired) that would be better torque for the same horse power
i think you are still confused....disregard the technical details and time of what 1hp actually is and the fact that torque in a vehicle is a twisting force....
......torque is meaningless without work done, after all you could wedge a 1ft long bar under a 1000ton rock and place 1000lb/s on the end of the bar, and you have 1000ft/lbs of torque BUT no work to apply it too..... what does it mean....absolutely **** all. you cannot apply torque without work done, it is meaningless.
if your horse did the same field in half a day, then his EITHER his speed has doubled (rpm hp), or his load has increased (torque). or a combination of the 2. THEY EQUATE TO EACH OTHER. try to understand this.
IN MOTOR VEHICLES, TORQUE AND BHP ARE DERIVED FROM THE SAME THING. YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.
TORQUE IS MEANINGLESS WITHOUT WORK DONE
16 February 2009, 11:02 PM
#128
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But a BMW diesel is still faster than a Scooby - this was proven recently when a BMW 120d travelling at 61mph overtook the RCMS Gobstopper which was travelling at 57mph 
22 February 2009, 04:53 PM
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Having had 3 Scoobs (last a T20), was the Chairman of the WYIOC for 5 years, remembered every trackday, Moors & Dales run that I've had the pleasure to do with some very special people and cars and now owning a 335D, I feel I'm in a position to comment.
I'm afraid some people have to remove their BHP, 4wd and Rally history blinkers and both come to terms with and embrace what's around them. Or passing them in this case.
As has been said, the torque from the modern, award winning twin turbo D units is simply phenomenal. What people do not realise either is th how well the box is mated to the engine. It is utterly seemless, ensuring uninterupted power right through the rev range.
To prove the point, when the club went to Stelvio last year, I'd had the car just one day. The only thing that told on the real switch backs was the wieght and my lack of knowledge at the time. Now that I can manage the gear box and the various traction control modes, that gap would close. But ~200kg extra weight to carry into 50+ switch backs is a lot... but thats the only real place the Beemer had trouble with...
One of the plus sides of this trip? Averaging ~36 MPG and getting all the way from Switzterland to Maidstone on a 60 Ltr tank....
I'm about to get the 335D chipped (for £350) and this will give me 335 BHP and ~500 Ft Lbs. Couple that to the toys, build quality and chassis dynamics, then I'm afraid the Scoob has a hard battle.
Last edited by Alan C; 22 February 2009 at 06:00 PM.
22 February 2009, 05:07 PM
#135
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I wouldn't waste your effort if I were you Alan, everyone "knows" that an oil burner can't ever be any good in an absolute sense, only relatively quick "for a diesel" 
If I could be bothered, I'd time my own standard 330D vs my standard classic STI, but it wouldn't prove anything. The BMW has about 60 bhp less but about 50 lb.ft more, plus about 250kg extra weight. It's probably slower, and I couldn't care less - certainly not enough to waste any fuel finding out.
I do, however, know quite a few people who have moved on to a 330D from an Impreza, and none who have regretted it...
If I could be bothered, I'd time my own standard 330D vs my standard classic STI, but it wouldn't prove anything. The BMW has about 60 bhp less but about 50 lb.ft more, plus about 250kg extra weight. It's probably slower, and I couldn't care less - certainly not enough to waste any fuel finding out.
I do, however, know quite a few people who have moved on to a 330D from an Impreza, and none who have regretted it...
22 February 2009, 05:22 PM
#136
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I wouldn't waste your effort if I were you Alan, everyone "knows" that an oil burner can't ever be any good in an absolute sense, only relatively quick "for a diesel"
If I could be bothered, I'd time my own standard 330D vs my standard classic STI, but it wouldn't prove anything. The BMW has about 60 bhp less but about 50 lb.ft more, plus about 250kg extra weight. It's probably slower, and I couldn't care less - certainly not enough to waste any fuel finding out.
I do, however, know quite a few people who have moved on to a 330D from an Impreza, and none who have regretted it...
If I could be bothered, I'd time my own standard 330D vs my standard classic STI, but it wouldn't prove anything. The BMW has about 60 bhp less but about 50 lb.ft more, plus about 250kg extra weight. It's probably slower, and I couldn't care less - certainly not enough to waste any fuel finding out.
I do, however, know quite a few people who have moved on to a 330D from an Impreza, and none who have regretted it...
Stelvio proved to me how good it was. I was particularly nervous taking it with 4 other Scoobs (one of them the AET car) and an Elise... but I needen't have worried as it didn't show itself up in the slightest....
Pulling alongside and pulling away (albeit slowly) from Stickies 380 BHP Clinic tuned car, on the motorway to Dover, with mine as stock was an eye opener. I only had it D too and had only done a few hundred miles in it to that point....
One thing's for sure, this one will be with me for a long time.
Last edited by Alan C; 22 February 2009 at 05:26 PM.
22 February 2009, 07:26 PM
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Just for comparison and your information, thought I'd post some real world Santa Pod figs from a mate with a 335D on a BM forum I go on too (Hi Carlos ).
regardless of the stereo types given below, these lads are as dedicated and passionate about their cars as on here... no armchair warriors here as tracks, drag strips and the Nurburgring are routinely visited....
Taken yesterday, as it happens....
2x tuned 335i - 400bhp
13.2@106
13.3@106
The 335D (with remap only) did 13.3@105.8
Some perspective:
A M6 couldnt get into the 13's
A tuned M5 did 12.5@116
E46 M3 does 13.5-13.7@104mph
RS4 13.2-13.4@103mph
Obviously rolling figures for the D would be pretty phenomenal....
).regardless of the stereo types given below, these lads are as dedicated and passionate about their cars as on here... no armchair warriors here as tracks, drag strips and the Nurburgring are routinely visited....
Taken yesterday, as it happens....
2x tuned 335i - 400bhp
13.2@106
13.3@106
The 335D (with remap only) did 13.3@105.8
Some perspective:
A M6 couldnt get into the 13's
A tuned M5 did 12.5@116
E46 M3 does 13.5-13.7@104mph
RS4 13.2-13.4@103mph
Obviously rolling figures for the D would be pretty phenomenal....
Last edited by Alan C; 22 February 2009 at 07:27 PM.
22 February 2009, 07:37 PM
#138
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22 February 2009, 08:24 PM
#139
Just for comparison and your information, thought I'd post some real world Santa Pod figs from a mate with a 335D on a BM forum I go on too (Hi Carlos ).
regardless of the stereo types given below, these lads are as dedicated and passionate about their cars as on here... no armchair warriors here as tracks, drag strips and the Nurburgring are routinely visited....
Taken yesterday, as it happens....
2x tuned 335i - 400bhp
13.2@106
13.3@106
The 335D (with remap only) did 13.3@105.8
Some perspective:
A M6 couldnt get into the 13's
A tuned M5 did 12.5@116
E46 M3 does 13.5-13.7@104mph
RS4 13.2-13.4@103mph
Obviously rolling figures for the D would be pretty phenomenal....
).regardless of the stereo types given below, these lads are as dedicated and passionate about their cars as on here... no armchair warriors here as tracks, drag strips and the Nurburgring are routinely visited....
Taken yesterday, as it happens....
2x tuned 335i - 400bhp
13.2@106
13.3@106
The 335D (with remap only) did 13.3@105.8
Some perspective:
A M6 couldnt get into the 13's
A tuned M5 did 12.5@116
E46 M3 does 13.5-13.7@104mph
RS4 13.2-13.4@103mph
Obviously rolling figures for the D would be pretty phenomenal....
)
22 February 2009, 10:18 PM
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Just for comparison and your information, thought I'd post some real world Santa Pod figs from a mate with a 335D on a BM forum I go on too (Hi Carlos ).
regardless of the stereo types given below, these lads are as dedicated and passionate about their cars as on here... no armchair warriors here as tracks, drag strips and the Nurburgring are routinely visited....
Taken yesterday, as it happens....
2x tuned 335i - 400bhp
13.2@106
13.3@106
The 335D (with remap only) did 13.3@105.8
Some perspective:
A M6 couldnt get into the 13's
A tuned M5 did 12.5@116
E46 M3 does 13.5-13.7@104mph
RS4 13.2-13.4@103mph
Obviously rolling figures for the D would be pretty phenomenal....
).regardless of the stereo types given below, these lads are as dedicated and passionate about their cars as on here... no armchair warriors here as tracks, drag strips and the Nurburgring are routinely visited....
Taken yesterday, as it happens....
2x tuned 335i - 400bhp
13.2@106
13.3@106
The 335D (with remap only) did 13.3@105.8
Some perspective:
A M6 couldnt get into the 13's
A tuned M5 did 12.5@116
E46 M3 does 13.5-13.7@104mph
RS4 13.2-13.4@103mph
Obviously rolling figures for the D would be pretty phenomenal....
Last edited by delcbr; 22 February 2009 at 10:20 PM.
23 February 2009, 08:08 AM
#143
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Pretty much. Dieselitis is what I call the affliction. The symptoms are an inability to consider that there may well be other things out there faster than the derv-burner, and a love of choosing uphill gradients as venues for thew drag races.
400ish bhp on the 335i's with those times? I suspect a bit of manure somewhere, and given the terminal speeds I'm pointing the finger at the power figure first. The 335d figure is a lot more likely though - and consistent with my personal experience of making unhappy derv drivers.
The thing I always find oddest is how diesel drivers like to bang on about how with a remap/retune they can achive xxlbft and destroy all on the roads. It's like they forget that petrol tuning exists and can be done as well!
The thing I always find oddest is how diesel drivers like to bang on about how with a remap/retune they can achive xxlbft and destroy all on the roads. It's like they forget that petrol tuning exists and can be done as well!
23 February 2009, 01:55 PM
#144
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Pretty much. Dieselitis is what I call the affliction. The symptoms are an inability to consider that there may well be other things out there faster than the derv-burner, and a love of choosing uphill gradients as venues for thew drag races.
400ish bhp on the 335i's with those times? I suspect a bit of manure somewhere, and given the terminal speeds I'm pointing the finger at the power figure first. The 335d figure is a lot more likely though - and consistent with my personal experience of making unhappy derv drivers.
The thing I always find oddest is how diesel drivers like to bang on about how with a remap/retune they can achive xxlbft and destroy all on the roads. It's like they forget that petrol tuning exists and can be done as well!
400ish bhp on the 335i's with those times? I suspect a bit of manure somewhere, and given the terminal speeds I'm pointing the finger at the power figure first. The 335d figure is a lot more likely though - and consistent with my personal experience of making unhappy derv drivers.
The thing I always find oddest is how diesel drivers like to bang on about how with a remap/retune they can achive xxlbft and destroy all on the roads. It's like they forget that petrol tuning exists and can be done as well!
I'm unlikely to say people have to appreciate what's around them and then do the opposite, aren't I? Also, a 330 or 335 isn't a scoob replacement. How can it be?
Plus, don't confuse educating someone to the finer points of other engines and their capabilities to ego. If I was in that game I'd be banging on about how much the car costs then waiting for a Merc SL55, Ferrari driver to come along and blow me out of the water.
Just because I have a D, it doesn't mean I'm excluded from the 'performance' gang. The amount of 'performance cars' a stock or tuned D pass with ease on the strip, track or road prove that point.
Education here is laying down some (good) figures relating to the D and simply debating the good points and fighting the corner if necessary to those unable to listen...
Considering the amount of people willing to both stereo type me and dismiss D out of hand shows a bad case of short-sightedness too...
Last edited by Alan C; 23 February 2009 at 01:57 PM.
23 February 2009, 06:21 PM
#145
Pretty much. Dieselitis is what I call the affliction. The symptoms are an inability to consider that there may well be other things out there faster than the derv-burner, and a love of choosing uphill gradients as venues for thew drag races.
400ish bhp on the 335i's with those times? I suspect a bit of manure somewhere, and given the terminal speeds I'm pointing the finger at the power figure first. The 335d figure is a lot more likely though - and consistent with my personal experience of making unhappy derv drivers.
The thing I always find oddest is how diesel drivers like to bang on about how with a remap/retune they can achive xxlbft and destroy all on the roads. It's like they forget that petrol tuning exists and can be done as well!
400ish bhp on the 335i's with those times? I suspect a bit of manure somewhere, and given the terminal speeds I'm pointing the finger at the power figure first. The 335d figure is a lot more likely though - and consistent with my personal experience of making unhappy derv drivers.
The thing I always find oddest is how diesel drivers like to bang on about how with a remap/retune they can achive xxlbft and destroy all on the roads. It's like they forget that petrol tuning exists and can be done as well!
23 February 2009, 06:29 PM
#146
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the 335d is an awesome machine and is seriously quick, but if you had the choice would you have gone for the M3 instead? do you think you would have been more satisfied with the M3, don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of diesel convertees tend to try to convince themselves that they have done the right thing and will post acceleration times, or stories of conquests over traditionally much quicker machinery on forums like this. if it were me, and i had the money, i would love to own both cars, but would find myself reaching for the keys to the M3 more than the D.
Last edited by stara; 23 February 2009 at 06:30 PM.
23 February 2009, 06:50 PM
#147
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Yes, but the E90 M3 is a fair lump of wonga more expensive for the equivalent age and spec isnt it... plus, I'm sure that people who buy a diesel BMW have an interest in economy, which typical M3 customers dont.
As a guide, I got our standard E46 330d Cabrio into the high 14s on the 1/4 mile with a terminal in the early 90's somewhere I think.
I am genuinely interested in a 335d or 335i at some point in the future, probably 5 years+ for me as I'm still a little young to dive into something quite so grown up IMO.
Cheers,
Grant
As a guide, I got our standard E46 330d Cabrio into the high 14s on the 1/4 mile with a terminal in the early 90's somewhere I think.
I am genuinely interested in a 335d or 335i at some point in the future, probably 5 years+ for me as I'm still a little young to dive into something quite so grown up IMO.
Cheers,
Grant
23 February 2009, 06:55 PM
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I'd go for the 335d - the only thing worse than the current gen of oil burners is the chocolate components that modern petrol engines have. At least the diesels will have iron blocks - unless that's changed as well now?!
Say, I wonder if you could take a diesel block, a petrol head and make a decent modern engine out the two?
Say, I wonder if you could take a diesel block, a petrol head and make a decent modern engine out the two?
23 February 2009, 07:09 PM
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Stara... No issues chatting regarding this... I made a hard decision as family reasons meant I had to get something less extreme and wearing on my good lady who has a medical condition that the T20 didn't exactly help with... Plus she couldn't drive it...
I could have got a CSL... But that wouldn't have been much help either... add the other problem of needing 4 doors..
But I can see where you're coming from regarding convincing myself that D was miles better... I won't name cars etc as that would be arrogant, but I'd see this more affecting people if they'd gone 'down' a perceived level or two from the Scoob and wanted to big-up the figures...(please don't take that the wrong way.. it was for comparison reasons..)
As performance D's improve (as if Le Mans wasn't proof enough of the performance aspects), then it will be common and readily accepted that such a naturally torquey engine is going to come out on top in specific tests... I'm sure electric will be given the same hard time
To be more accurate I'd say the D is miles different. It's better in many, many areas (as you'd expect for nearly 15-20k more), but not in others.
I also need to stress that I'm not a D convert, just someone who's a convert to the 335D, because as a daily drive package it really is a special motor.. It just happens to be powered by a stonking engine that barely sounds like a D, has no smoke like the old rattly D's and sounds 6 Cylinder growly...all with 500 ft lbs, 335 BHP and mid 30's MPG when 'on it' and Low 50's on a cruise control run...... Of course that's half the story...but those figures alone make me smile and think it's all worth it...
and surely posting times and power figures etc is what we've all done?
I could have got a CSL... But that wouldn't have been much help either... add the other problem of needing 4 doors..
But I can see where you're coming from regarding convincing myself that D was miles better... I won't name cars etc as that would be arrogant, but I'd see this more affecting people if they'd gone 'down' a perceived level or two from the Scoob and wanted to big-up the figures...(please don't take that the wrong way.. it was for comparison reasons..)
As performance D's improve (as if Le Mans wasn't proof enough of the performance aspects), then it will be common and readily accepted that such a naturally torquey engine is going to come out on top in specific tests... I'm sure electric will be given the same hard time
To be more accurate I'd say the D is miles different. It's better in many, many areas (as you'd expect for nearly 15-20k more), but not in others.
I also need to stress that I'm not a D convert, just someone who's a convert to the 335D, because as a daily drive package it really is a special motor.. It just happens to be powered by a stonking engine that barely sounds like a D, has no smoke like the old rattly D's and sounds 6 Cylinder growly...all with 500 ft lbs, 335 BHP and mid 30's MPG when 'on it' and Low 50's on a cruise control run...... Of course that's half the story...but those figures alone make me smile and think it's all worth it...
and surely posting times and power figures etc is what we've all done?
Last edited by Alan C; 23 February 2009 at 07:15 PM.
23 February 2009, 07:12 PM
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Yes, but the E90 M3 is a fair lump of wonga more expensive for the equivalent age and spec isnt it... plus, I'm sure that people who buy a diesel BMW have an interest in economy, which typical M3 customers dont.
As a guide, I got our standard E46 330d Cabrio into the high 14s on the 1/4 mile with a terminal in the early 90's somewhere I think.
I am genuinely interested in a 335d or 335i at some point in the future, probably 5 years+ for me as I'm still a little young to dive into something quite so grown up IMO.
Cheers,
Grant
As a guide, I got our standard E46 330d Cabrio into the high 14s on the 1/4 mile with a terminal in the early 90's somewhere I think.
I am genuinely interested in a 335d or 335i at some point in the future, probably 5 years+ for me as I'm still a little young to dive into something quite so grown up IMO.
Cheers,
Grant