jeremy

MicaRed,

I appreciated your thoughts on the GT-R. Indeed some people are getting a might bit overexcited about the GT-R as the be all end all of road car handling- which it can be in some circumstances, but alas not all.

Lets not forgot some other weakness's of the Nissan...It heavy as all meaning it cannot always change direction with the ease and safety other Impreza size cars can. Indeed one would not be able lose traction in a GT-r on a wet narrow road without really pushing your luck or a tree.

And John B, I'm surprised you did not mention that one of your pet peeves- with your Evo is its average wheel travel, seems to afflict the GT-R as well. I think the GT-R might compensate for damping and wheel travel with wheel and tire size, which often can work but not always. Also worth mentioning with the GT-R is that it is immensely rigid car somewhere close to 100% more rigid in bending to something like the Impreza which itself is just about as rigid as a Golf. This helps no small amount to make a big car feel smaller and contain its mass, combined with heavy weight makes for super traction. There lots of variables here....

Indeed a long- over a week, comparison with a Type 20 would be instructive to us all.

john banks

I don't notice any problem with wheel travel or compliance on the Evo (stock Bilsteins and 17" wheels) on either the stock A046 tyres or Michelin PS2. The tyres usually stay on the tarmac and I don't have to lift off anywhere before I run out of bottle. It lands well too, but I'm avoiding that now as I think it may have contributed to my gearbox problem The limit is only my bravery/stupidity. In an M3 or MkV Golf it is a completely different matter down the same roads. Horrible.

On the Evo I dislike the noise and the image, that is all.

Matteeboy

Upgrade your ICE, stick a V8 soundtrack CD on and wear a disguise. Much cheaper option.

micared

I find the GTR a peculiar blend of contradictions....I admire Nissan for its ability to produce something for only circa 55k so worthy of admiration, and then I drive it and don't particularly admire it. I understand the point of it, i.e.
it's possible to build it so lets, but, to my mind the press have hugely influenced the outlook and expectations people have about this car.

For several months I had unlimited access to ours, yet didn't drive it as often as I could have done, for the simple reason that, on the roads I like to use to have my fun on, the other cars at my disposal ( which would probably be considered mundane by comparison ) provided more of what I was after, more of the time. I'm trying to decide if involvement's the word I'm looking for.

I know what J.B. means about the image thing with the Evo, I sometimes feel the same way, but I've had one for more than 4 years now, far longer than anything else I've had, and frankly, for what the car is actually worth, and what I get back from its capabilities as a driving experience, I can live with it.

john banks

I know they won't compare numbers wise to the GTR, but what were the other cars you found involving/rewarding?

FWIW, I like every single Ford made since the mid 90s that I've driven.

Spooky Mulder

mica,

did you read the evo link I posted. I have not driven the GTR and have never been in one. However I read that article and the emotion driving the GT3 was palpable from the author and yet the target of the review, the GTR, reads like, went to shops, was a bit nippy.

micared

Erm, some of this'll make you laugh, and I'm almost reluctant to admit to some to of it, for fear of risking whatever credibility I may have misguidedly thought I had, but, in no particular order...

'03 Evo 8, FQ330 spec, AP brakes, Bilsteins. For me, it's irreplaceable, and sod the image.

Audi R8..was my father in laws car ( as is the GTR now ). Wasn't perfect, but I'd buy one with my own money if it was feasible.

Corrado VR6...there are probably better handling front drivers, but I've never owned or driven them.

Alpina B10...the first car that made me think about growing up and being reasonably sensible....19" wheels, and yet one of the best ride/handling balances I'd tried at the time ( about 7 years ago ).

And now for the comedy entrant...our '55 plate Lexus IS250. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it is all I can say. 99.9% of owners will never know how well this car steers and handles....drive it like you stole it, have an absolute riot on a country road, and still seem respectable to your neighbours. The most surprising car I think I've ever driven.

micared

Hi, never driven a 911 of any flavour, so difficult to make a comparison personally, but as far as the GTR goes I can understand the sentiment.

Hoppy

Yes, which is why places like SN are so useful. It's usually very hard to get a meaningful test drive of a car, unless you're buying new and there's a demonstrator you can have for the day.

The press are often not the best guide for this sort of thing. Magazine reviews are not written for people that are actually going to buy cars; if they were, they'd sell only a few dozen copies. They are written for automotive enthusiasts, petrol heads and dreamers, and make no attempt to address the proposition of real ownership on a daily basis.

They also tend to pander to the general view, and that is often one set for them. The GTR has a certain heritage, huge performance for a fact, and Nissan technology is wonderful in itself. That car is never going to get a bum review. Who wants to buy a magazine to read how crap the new GTR is? Not me! Potential buyers must find their own way (as JB is doing ).

Spooky Mulder

After the GTR won car of the year in evo there was a great letter. It was clear from the writing that if any of the authors had the money and were buying any of the cars, it would not have been the GTR they would take home.

Read between the lines of any article and the technical supremacy of the GTR shines through as well as the ordinariness of it at anything less then 9/10ths.

Maybe one day I will get the chance to prove it.

PS I find the technical supremacy very appealing but it is beyond my pocket at the moment.

Hoppy

Interesting post Spooks It's about the heart rather than the head isn't it. Maybe this is why you like the GT3 so much, and I truly respect the views of anyone who puts their hand in their pocket and actually buys a certain car.

The GT3 is raw and pure, and challenging. Perfectly flawed. No gizmos. And you'll surely hardly ever get to reach its limits, but maybe you can just feel them now and again. The GTR thrashes the GT3 by any objective performance measure, but its speed is so effortless from the driving seat that perhaps it becomes boring.

Hard to believe maybe, and I'd surely like to give it a bash (remember me John mate, your bestest buddy? ) but those Evo guys are the best magazine team out there, genuine car nuts first, and journalists and wannabe TV personalities second.

If 300bhp is good, then 600bhp must be twice as good, right? Maybe not. I would hazard a guess that the FRS is tremendous fun round your favourite roads - you're fighting it and it is fighting the road every inch of the way. But then the GTR would demolish the same stretch without even breaking sweat. 600mph in a jumbo jet isn't too exciting either.

Maybe we should all get Caterhams

Spooky Mulder

Hi Richard,

the interesting thing is - after an STi V tuned to the max and the Spec C the GT3 just does not feel that raw, it is almost refined.

But when you drive it you are totally connected. Sounds like magazine bull I know - but you really just have to imagine what it is doing and it is, tiny inputs, fabulous proportional response and the most emotive engine I have ever experienced.

It is a car that initially feels a little and heavy and ponderous after the Spec C and then that all melts away as you get moving.

I have not yet driven one at 10/10ths although I have been driven in one at 10/10ths and on the basis of those few laps alone I have wanted to get this car for four years now.

I am sure an R500 would be a lot more direct - but by the time I had driven to the 'Ring I would be too exhausted to go around it. In the GT3 I would arrive fresh and only be cooked once I got out there and turned the volume up.

From everything I have read about the GTR (and as much as I want one) I think I would be a car park hero and yet the only time I would break sweat would be the 2-3s before I hit the tree/wall/ditch as it finally let go.

In the GT3 I will be there most of the time I am not on a motorway.

jeremy

Just thinking about this for a second. Although we all agree that the current GT-R is indeed missing that last little bit of feel, deftness to slight touch, and overall light weight- lets not write it off too fast either.

Frankly we don't know how much the car can be developed over the next few years- obvioulsy it would seem that something on the order of 300 to 400 lbs could be removed from the car which might transform it right there. Let alone better shocks which if not today might be developed to make the car ride better. So its a bit who knows at this point. No doubt a great canvas for artists to step in and do their work. JL

blu scoob

I have had many GTRs now and the only thing I can say that's is bad about them is some times from first to second gear in( auto )the car doesnt no wich gear to be in so it hesitates,and on the odd one the diff makes a grinding when you are slowing down,not a clunk clunk,but I have just managed to buy a June UK car because I will feel alot better knowing I have a warranty,otherwise you will go along and expensive way to find a car that will touch it

jeremy

MicaRed,

One last important point about your family's GT-R; and thats its run-flat tires. Most everyone I have ever spoken with- including many in my family who run BMW's with them say they are quite bad, giving a very harsh ride and an extra bit of tramlining.

So while I know the GT-R was specially developed for either the Dunlops or Bridgstones, I might see about fitting a regular version of the same model. It could be a major improvment in ride quality and maybe handling high speed bumps.

Heres a link from PH on the subject...
BMW run flat tyres - what a joke!

john banks

One review I read or watched had a GTR on non-run flats, and apparently it was much more comfortable, but still did a good lap time.

micared

Yeah, agree that the runflats are probably contributing to the problem, but that just makes it all the more unforgivable really...Nissan knew in advance what tyres they were going to use, it wasn't sprung on them at the last moment, and would have taken the stiffness of the sidewalls into account when calculating the spring and damper rates.

Having said all that, the car we have isn't U.K. spec, be interested to find out the differences, if only for discussions sake. It's acedemic really, the one we have is being replaced soon with something only marginally less ridiculous.

Dark Blue Mark

Hi John,

I haven't read any of the replies on here due to my ****e connection atm, but interesting choice on the GTR. We have followed similar car paths from scoobs, to Evo 8, and maybe now GT-R. I know you didn;t get on tooo well the M3, so a GT3 is going to a similar thing on those slippy back roads, where the Evo or GTR is going to do some damage to them! No doubt the GT3 is the one to have for track fun, but I suspect you want a good road car, and the GTR is hard to beat as an all rounder.

I have had a deposit down since december and the car was due in March - but I have just cancelled it, along with a fair few others. Basically Nissan are being a bunch of tossers and still haven't confirmed a lot of essential things. It looks like post track day inspections are mandatory, VDC off voids the warranty, and the servicing costs are astronomical. This is all yet to be confirmed by Nissan, but with people recieving cars in the next week or so, it's totally out of order.

It tells me they have no mechnical faith in the car, which is odd given that the actual reliability appears to be spot on (bar a few silly yanks being unkind to the transmission)

Given all this rubbish, I think that buying an import may be the more sensible option atm, and just say sod the warranty!

Litchfield and others will service it for sensible money, and some of them have the right diagnostic equipment for the car. You can also just remap it to well over 500 bhp

Having been in the car twice, I can confirm its an absolute beast, and I do want one, i'm just not prepared to be messed around by Nissan and have a car worth peanuts due to the effect on residuals.

Have a look on the GTR owners club, it's really all hit the fan! Arguments galore, mods quitting, people turning on those who have cancelled etc.

GT-R Register - Official Nissan Skyline and GTR Owners Club forum - Powered by vBulletin

john banks

Not been on the GT-R register for a week or two and then just looked after your link. Incredible. The servicing costs appear to be about TEN TIMES what I pay for my Evo. No thanks!

Dark Blue Mark

Yep.

I actually think the Evo will be 90% of a GTR on most country roads, if not more. It's absolutely massive - although nimble.

ATM i'm planning on keeping the Exige and adding an R34 or E9 to the driveway.

Spooky Mulder

Interesting reading! Off topic but interesting comment - the GT3 is a track tool and yet you drive an Exige! From my own experience the GT3 is like a limo compared to the Exige.

I find the GT3 quite civilised on the road compared to STis both old and new.

Dark Blue Mark

Hi Spooky, I have another car besides the Exige It's just for track days. It can be a PITA on the roads, mainly from a noise and visibility point of view. There is zero rear view, and the supercharger gets noisy around 80 mph. I was deaf last time I went to Spa

What I meant about the GT3 is that John probably want's a fast road car, and I got the impression he drives though country roads which can be wet / slippy, so maybe AWD is the best soultion. I think he had an M3 for a while and found it to be too compromised to go fast in the wrong conditions.

I'm sure it's a comfyish (in relative terms!) on the roads, but not sure if you can extract as much from it in adverse conditions.

I would love one but the 997 is still a bit steep for my liking.

Spooky Mulder

You mean lairy oversteer on tap wet or dry is not to your taste

All good - and regards John he really wants an evo with sound deadening and no spoiler

john banks

Evos tend to get unstable at high speed without the spoiler, it actually does something. Subarus seem to tolerate not having one better.

Sports cat arriving soon, and will also put sound deadening under the rear bench.

jeremy

John,
Even if the GT-r was 100pounds to run a year (lol), still good as it is, it really is a boat of a car. I think its literally like 600lbs more than a hot hatch or scooby/evo!! And I think if pushed on your type roads it might turn a few surprises on you. I will say this though, all that weight probably helps with wet traction, and combined with those massive wheels/tires causes a progressive slip ue to the forces opposing one another- tire and weight.

It would be funny if the new Focus RS winds up being the best on such winding roads. Hard as it is to believe.

Here a decent test comparing RS/Megane/STi:
Driver's Republic - Prize Fight 042

Dark Blue Mark

I am normall not one to gripe about interiors coming from Impreza / Evo / Exige, but the Focus is just nasty!

Spooky Mulder

John,

I think you took my comment too literally - I was being tongue-in-cheek regarding your desire for a car that is less of a 'hooligan' as well as your obvious desire for Evo like performance.

Get a 997 Turbo

Or have we been here before?

Spooky

G00ner

Nice to have the option of buying one, well done DBM.

As for that GTR forum, incredible that so many owners/potential owners are squabbling like a bunch of kids, that's the sort of thing you expect to see on here.

Hoppy

Yes, we have. And a GTR still looks like a risky proposition right now. While a 997 Turbo which can't be far off £50k.

john banks

They are hanging on, if I knew I could get a ready supply of good parts for sensible money and could get Ecuflash level of access to the ECU I would be tempted to run one out of warranty and mod it. Neither are going to happen, so I'm not.

An Evo with the same power as a 997 GT2 seems to outdrag it at the 30-130 day, the best Evo was nearly twice as fast to accelerate, and it was "only" using a GT35R.