Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road?
18 November 2006, 10:32 AM
#121
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From Ecutek website. Ecutek produce the software Prodrive use for their PPP upgrade.
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Comparison of Road Dyno & Chassis Dyno Power Testing
DDRD gives real world performance figures - plain and simple. There is no disputing performance figures that are calculated on the road, in the true driving environment. There are many variables that effect the results of power testing for both chassis (rolling road) and on road dyno testing. These include:
Air temperature - when road testing, this is the temperature out on the road. When rolling road testing, this is the temperature found inside the building. Depending on the complexity of the rolling road, it may be possible to regulate air temperature (e.g. MIRA), but dynos with this facility are well beyond the budgets of enthusiasts.
Intercooler cooling effect - greater cooling effect means denser charge air, more power, faster spool up and larger boost spikes.
Coolant system cooling effect - greater cooling effect enables better regulation of engine temperature.
Exhaust cooling effect - greater cooling effect of exhaust manifold/headers worsens turbo spool up due to reduced exhaust gas velocities at the turbo.
Load impedance - this determines how fast the engine is allowed to accelerate. On the road, this is determined by the gearing, drag and vehicle mass. On the rolling road, this is determined by the dyno operator and the setup of the rolling road. On a rolling road, perform the test too quickly, and the turbo spool up will be inaccurately poor and the car will not achieve a high enough boost pressure. Perform the test too slow, and the turbo spool up will read unrepresentatively high and heat build up will impair the top end power figure.
This is one of the main reasons why comparing results from two dissimilar dynos is a waste of time. It is meaningless to say that one dyno 'reads' higher or lower than any other dyno unless the characteristics of the test are known, and the effect of these characteristics is known and understood.
Wheel slip - on a rolling road, it is normal to test vehicles in quite high gears. This helps to reduce wheel slip on the knurled steel rollers on which the car sits. When road testing, there are higher levels of friction between the tyres and road surface, which allow tests to be performed in lower gears if required.
When testing on the road, you know that the above variables are all real world quantities encountered on the road. Only if the operator of the rolling road can reproduce all of these effects as seen on the road will the rolling road performance figures be close to those actually encountered on the road. Having said that, in order to get accurate results using a road dyno method, it must be setup correctly, though this is much easier to achieve.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Comparison of Road Dyno & Chassis Dyno Power Testing
DDRD gives real world performance figures - plain and simple. There is no disputing performance figures that are calculated on the road, in the true driving environment. There are many variables that effect the results of power testing for both chassis (rolling road) and on road dyno testing. These include:
Air temperature - when road testing, this is the temperature out on the road. When rolling road testing, this is the temperature found inside the building. Depending on the complexity of the rolling road, it may be possible to regulate air temperature (e.g. MIRA), but dynos with this facility are well beyond the budgets of enthusiasts.
Intercooler cooling effect - greater cooling effect means denser charge air, more power, faster spool up and larger boost spikes.
Coolant system cooling effect - greater cooling effect enables better regulation of engine temperature.
Exhaust cooling effect - greater cooling effect of exhaust manifold/headers worsens turbo spool up due to reduced exhaust gas velocities at the turbo.
Load impedance - this determines how fast the engine is allowed to accelerate. On the road, this is determined by the gearing, drag and vehicle mass. On the rolling road, this is determined by the dyno operator and the setup of the rolling road. On a rolling road, perform the test too quickly, and the turbo spool up will be inaccurately poor and the car will not achieve a high enough boost pressure. Perform the test too slow, and the turbo spool up will read unrepresentatively high and heat build up will impair the top end power figure.
This is one of the main reasons why comparing results from two dissimilar dynos is a waste of time. It is meaningless to say that one dyno 'reads' higher or lower than any other dyno unless the characteristics of the test are known, and the effect of these characteristics is known and understood.
Wheel slip - on a rolling road, it is normal to test vehicles in quite high gears. This helps to reduce wheel slip on the knurled steel rollers on which the car sits. When road testing, there are higher levels of friction between the tyres and road surface, which allow tests to be performed in lower gears if required.
When testing on the road, you know that the above variables are all real world quantities encountered on the road. Only if the operator of the rolling road can reproduce all of these effects as seen on the road will the rolling road performance figures be close to those actually encountered on the road. Having said that, in order to get accurate results using a road dyno method, it must be setup correctly, though this is much easier to achieve.
Last edited by Andy.F; 18 November 2006 at 10:37 AM.
18 November 2006, 10:37 AM
#122
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Originally Posted by R4LLY
You don't have too. The fact is that tuners who use the RR rely solely on dyno figures to satisy their customers. I am not rubbishing dyno mapping, but just wanted to state that with a road map i achieved a satisfactory Dyno result as well as on the road..... Some people argue that when car's are mapped on road they achieve less power on the dyno.... this is not always the case...
There are many well renowned mappers who vary with their methods. However what it boils down to is that the tuner who has developed the fastest impreza recommends Road tuning.
"Joe bloggs" from the public only has this to go by......
There are many well renowned mappers who vary with their methods. However what it boils down to is that the tuner who has developed the fastest impreza recommends Road tuning.
"Joe bloggs" from the public only has this to go by......
further to the above on my last map 354/322 using bp 97 , 3 months later 358/335 using vpower this is again what i expected and gives further confidence on the reliability of those figures . At this rr day i had even predicted a small increase as i could feel it on the road after switching to vpower .
The fact hat you have an accurate rolling road , experienced mappers and the car is then road tested and any adjustments made, in my opinion make this the best combination .
andy
18 November 2006, 11:09 AM
#123
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Rigoli Racing anyone....
The fastest Impreza in the world and they just happen to own a DD rolling road...
Need I say more....
The fastest Impreza in the world and they just happen to own a DD rolling road...
Need I say more....
Last edited by MartynJ; 18 November 2006 at 11:11 AM.
18 November 2006, 11:22 AM
#127
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That will be as a full on drag car with Lenco planetary gearbox, tubbed rear end and 15" wide slicks.
Not to mention the minor point of a 3.3 ltr flat 6 engine
IIRC they never got below 10 seconds on a manual gearbox 4 cylinder car.
Not to mention the minor point of a 3.3 ltr flat 6 engine
IIRC they never got below 10 seconds on a manual gearbox 4 cylinder car.
Last edited by Andy.F; 18 November 2006 at 11:26 AM.
18 November 2006, 01:54 PM
#128
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Andy your achievments in the last couple of years with your car are nothing short of amazing...The fact that just about all of the highest hp cars in the world come from the land that spawned the DD rolling road should however tell you something...
I would also like to say that yours and my ideas of what constitutes a ROAD CAR differ somewhat....
My hillclimb car (Which took first and second in class at three of our local sprint and hillclimb events this year) is what I would call a road car...
By this I mean I not only could , but do use it every day....It takes me to work , to the shops , just about everywhere and gets driven to and from every event that I compete in...
It is FULLY road legal and would pass a road side emissions test should it be required...How many of you can say that...
Yours is a competition car Andy , nothing less....
I would also like to say that yours and my ideas of what constitutes a ROAD CAR differ somewhat....
My hillclimb car (Which took first and second in class at three of our local sprint and hillclimb events this year) is what I would call a road car...
By this I mean I not only could , but do use it every day....It takes me to work , to the shops , just about everywhere and gets driven to and from every event that I compete in...
It is FULLY road legal and would pass a road side emissions test should it be required...How many of you can say that...
Yours is a competition car Andy , nothing less....
Last edited by MartynJ; 18 November 2006 at 02:14 PM.
18 November 2006, 02:06 PM
#129
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You're trying to compare a Joint Strike fighter plane to a Cessna.
I have little interest in top flight drag cars, no more than I do formula one.
Ecutek recommended the DD dyno to me.
Working on the basis that road cars can only be tuned on the road, we'd better tell all the major manufacturers that all the research they do is pants, and all they need in the future is a man with a laptop. Get your coat Andy!
I have little interest in top flight drag cars, no more than I do formula one.
Ecutek recommended the DD dyno to me.
Working on the basis that road cars can only be tuned on the road, we'd better tell all the major manufacturers that all the research they do is pants, and all they need in the future is a man with a laptop. Get your coat Andy!
18 November 2006, 02:30 PM
#130
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TRP Project Car...2 Door Drag Car
Granted it's an auto , but looks like a four pot to me.....
Martyn
P.S. Not advertising here just showing an article....SN
Granted it's an auto , but looks like a four pot to me.....
Martyn
P.S. Not advertising here just showing an article....SN
18 November 2006, 04:05 PM
#131
Bob :
This is what I said earlier :
I have never, ever, criticized any mapping you have done for me. Please be very clear of that. Indeed I am in awe of your ability and dedication to obtain optimum results. For you, unlike some others, the end result is more important than the time involved in achieving it.
I remember the ECUTEK you put on Murray Hessleton's car. It had been mapped by someone else previously. We started before 11:00 one Sunday morning about this time of year and only finished when you were happy with it and that took until well after dark. I cannot remember the particular issue but you would not accept anything but a 100% result. The owner was over the moon.
I never had any reason to do anything with your STi 6 Wagon maps, other than adjust them for differing conditions or alterations and this was done with your help and guidance. We did have to go to Bruntingthorpe because of the acceleration and speeds involved and you used that facility regularly. How many other mappers make that effort or have that luxuary?
After your mapping on the WRX Wagon with a six row Link, I did many other mods and was happy to do a lot of the adjustments myself. The map was perfected by others on the public highway and I found there was further power to be had on the rollers along with the elimination of a couple of flat spots. Following the roller session the car drove better and there was an improvement in pick up.
I asked you to look out for another ECU for me as a step up from the six row Link. Nothing was forthcoming but I ended up with an Apexi in a straight swap. The history of that is on here elsewhere; first impressions were how smooth and O/E like the car was with the MAF and Apexi but it had lost some urgency. This was confirmed the same day the Apexi was fitted at Dastek and again some weeks later when it was run at Simpsonmotorsport. Sometime after that, it was remapped on the rollers and tested on the road. It did feel better and I ran it like that for some time.
The exact figures I will dig out but it was a clear improvement.
I can also find figures for other cars. Naturally, setting a car up on rollers for maximum power (on the rollers) will show improvements over road maps and I do not dispute that. However, some cars have had a big descrepancy and the road driving experience afterwards, following adjustments to the map, is marked. Hence, why I feel in many cases a combination of road and roller mapping, yields the best overall results.
I should also say, just to be precise, that I have come across odd cars that are not suited to top end power setting on the rollers because the AFRs achieved are substantially different to those on the road. This is on only an odd car however and if mapping is a combination of road and roller very easily detected.
At least with mapping on the rollers, every load site can be easily visited which, even with a competant test driver is precarious on an open road for many reasons.
During the last year or so, I have seen many cars "improved" on the rollers and not just at Simpsonmotorsport and this has brought me to believe that for best results, a combination of road and rolling road
Harvey your Sti6 ... that got some good figures ... set up on the road iirc And those high speed runs at Brunters got the top end spot on I thought.
Not everyone has your experience and dedication Bob, to spend the time refining maps as we have done in the past. There is no critisism of your results implied or intended.
I remember the ECUTEK you put on Murray Hessleton's car. It had been mapped by someone else previously. We started before 11:00 one Sunday morning about this time of year and only finished when you were happy with it and that took until well after dark. I cannot remember the particular issue but you would not accept anything but a 100% result. The owner was over the moon.
I never had any reason to do anything with your STi 6 Wagon maps, other than adjust them for differing conditions or alterations and this was done with your help and guidance. We did have to go to Bruntingthorpe because of the acceleration and speeds involved and you used that facility regularly. How many other mappers make that effort or have that luxuary?
After your mapping on the WRX Wagon with a six row Link, I did many other mods and was happy to do a lot of the adjustments myself. The map was perfected by others on the public highway and I found there was further power to be had on the rollers along with the elimination of a couple of flat spots. Following the roller session the car drove better and there was an improvement in pick up.
I asked you to look out for another ECU for me as a step up from the six row Link. Nothing was forthcoming but I ended up with an Apexi in a straight swap. The history of that is on here elsewhere; first impressions were how smooth and O/E like the car was with the MAF and Apexi but it had lost some urgency. This was confirmed the same day the Apexi was fitted at Dastek and again some weeks later when it was run at Simpsonmotorsport. Sometime after that, it was remapped on the rollers and tested on the road. It did feel better and I ran it like that for some time.
The exact figures I will dig out but it was a clear improvement.
I can also find figures for other cars. Naturally, setting a car up on rollers for maximum power (on the rollers) will show improvements over road maps and I do not dispute that. However, some cars have had a big descrepancy and the road driving experience afterwards, following adjustments to the map, is marked. Hence, why I feel in many cases a combination of road and roller mapping, yields the best overall results.
I should also say, just to be precise, that I have come across odd cars that are not suited to top end power setting on the rollers because the AFRs achieved are substantially different to those on the road. This is on only an odd car however and if mapping is a combination of road and roller very easily detected.
At least with mapping on the rollers, every load site can be easily visited which, even with a competant test driver is precarious on an open road for many reasons.
During the last year or so, I have seen many cars "improved" on the rollers and not just at Simpsonmotorsport and this has brought me to believe that for best results, a combination of road and rolling road
18 November 2006, 04:15 PM
#132
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Guys, calm down
You referred to the performance figure of the 3.3 H6 and then posted a link to a different car, that seems fair 
Both of these cars run drag/auto boxes and custom solid rear axles.
Just a bit different to my car still running a 5 speed gearset in an original subaru casing, complete with std rear diff and track suspension set up.
Rigolli lost approx 0.7 seconds just by swapping to the auto. With a terminal of 158mph however, they are not making that much power, just excellent traction from the slicks.
My car is most certainly a road car and I have driven it hundreds of miles too and from events, it even competes on road legal radials.
Anyway this thread is not about my car, its about road v dyno tuning.
I'd like to know how Prodrive found 15bhp gains on a DD dyno by doing absolutely nothing to the car ?
You recall when I was down at your place the car that lost something like 20-30 bhp after sitting overnight untouched ??
Theoretically would it be possible to run a competitors mapped car with the engine fully warmed up but the transmission fairly cool and the tyres at say 28psi, achieve a power figure, then make adjustments, run some more and apparently gain 10 bhp BUT in reality you could have actually just lost 5bhp ?
This would be due to the relative lack of cooling causing overheating the transmission hence reducing drag, also the frictional/distortion heat generated at the roller interface increasing the tyre pressures which in turn reduces rolling drag.
A yes or no answer would do
Originally Posted by MartynJ
In 8.07 seconds though Andy....
Both of these cars run drag/auto boxes and custom solid rear axles.
Just a bit different to my car still running a 5 speed gearset in an original subaru casing, complete with std rear diff and track suspension set up.
Rigolli lost approx 0.7 seconds just by swapping to the auto. With a terminal of 158mph however, they are not making that much power, just excellent traction from the slicks.
My car is most certainly a road car and I have driven it hundreds of miles too and from events, it even competes on road legal radials.
Anyway this thread is not about my car, its about road v dyno tuning.
I'd like to know how Prodrive found 15bhp gains on a DD dyno by doing absolutely nothing to the car ?
You recall when I was down at your place the car that lost something like 20-30 bhp after sitting overnight untouched ??
Theoretically
would it be possible to run a competitors mapped car with the engine fully warmed up but the transmission fairly cool and the tyres at say 28psi, achieve a power figure, then make adjustments, run some more and apparently gain 10 bhp BUT in reality you could have actually just lost 5bhp ?This would be due to the relative lack of cooling causing overheating the transmission hence reducing drag, also the frictional/distortion heat generated at the roller interface increasing the tyre pressures which in turn reduces rolling drag.
A yes or no answer would do
18 November 2006, 06:07 PM
#133
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Tyre deformation on rollers, is that why DD suggest running at 42psi (or there abouts) when on the rollers? If so don't know too many who use that sort of pressure on the road, wouldn't fancy seeing what they go upto after a few runs with the heat generated on the rollers 
18 November 2006, 06:22 PM
#134
Scooby Regular
Andy ,
Obviously I cannot comment on the findings experienced by Prodrive as it wasn't on our rolling road nor was I there...
I apologise if I have misled anyone by posting incorrect figures for the Impreza engined Rigoli car and have already stated that I cannot take anything away from your amazing car...
I was not carrying out a direct comparrison between them , just highlighting the fact that they seem to do very well with their DD mapped cars...
During this thread we have seen testimonies from customers of both yourself and us and both seemed very happy with the results they have...
Surely this goes to prove that both methods have their place in the Scooby community and that they will both continue for a long time to come...
I think in the end everyone will choose whichever method suits them best..
Your livelihood will be intact because of your reputation and ours will because of the consistent results we are obtaining through constant development and our insistence to do things the way we do...Oh that and the fact that we can give power readings from both the Delta Dash road dyno and the DD rolling road..
BTW have you ever tried road dynoing a standard car...Our rolling road has proved to be **** on time and time again....
Martyn
Obviously I cannot comment on the findings experienced by Prodrive as it wasn't on our rolling road nor was I there...
I apologise if I have misled anyone by posting incorrect figures for the Impreza engined Rigoli car and have already stated that I cannot take anything away from your amazing car...
I was not carrying out a direct comparrison between them , just highlighting the fact that they seem to do very well with their DD mapped cars...
During this thread we have seen testimonies from customers of both yourself and us and both seemed very happy with the results they have...
Surely this goes to prove that both methods have their place in the Scooby community and that they will both continue for a long time to come...
I think in the end everyone will choose whichever method suits them best..
Your livelihood will be intact because of your reputation and ours will because of the consistent results we are obtaining through constant development and our insistence to do things the way we do...Oh that and the fact that we can give power readings from both the Delta Dash road dyno and the DD rolling road..
BTW have you ever tried road dynoing a standard car...Our rolling road has proved to be **** on time and time again....
Martyn
18 November 2006, 06:42 PM
#135
I'd like to know how Prodrive found 15bhp gains on a DD dyno by doing absolutely nothing to the car ?
There are competant RR operators and less competant, even incompetant operators, just as there are competant mappers, less competant and incompetant.
18 November 2006, 06:47 PM
#136
If you are not planning on doing 140mph on the road then why do you want it mapped for it ?
A track day? A day at Bruntingthorpe, Elvington or just a run home one night/early morning when the car feels good, the road is empty and you go for it???
I want my car mapped to the red line which is why a combination of road and roller without the facility of Bruntingthorpe has to be the way to go.
18 November 2006, 07:08 PM
#138
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This is all very interesting.
I would say only this, the best method is that which is most appropriate to each individual case, and that may be entirel road based, entirely roller based, or any mix in between! I would say that my favourite rollers for mapping so far have been a rather old set of Maha rollers!
I would say only this, the best method is that which is most appropriate to each individual case, and that may be entirel road based, entirely roller based, or any mix in between! I would say that my favourite rollers for mapping so far have been a rather old set of Maha rollers!
18 November 2006, 08:39 PM
#139
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I used a MAHA/SUN 2 wd set for 30 years! fine up to 200 bhp, and very easy to use. Bear in mind when I started, there wasn't any pc's! And 200 bhp was a lot of power then. I've always used the rollers for every type of car, including little ministocks that put out 30 bhp. When you can find that last single horse power it matters a great deal if you're racing.
18 November 2006, 08:50 PM
#140
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As an aside, those who think rollers offer inconsistencies have no idea how inconsistent "road" testing is! I can't even be bothered to bang on about the varying conditions encountered, save to point out that dyno variations are easily spotted due to the figures, whereas when road testing, you have absolutely no idea whatever about what's going on, other than the tight feel from your ***...
I had a car in today, one of many. I richened the mixture, it settled at 13 to 1 AFR and gained power. End of.
I had a car in today, one of many. I richened the mixture, it settled at 13 to 1 AFR and gained power. End of.
18 November 2006, 09:28 PM
#142
Ecu Specialist
Its not hard for a car to pick up bhp and torque on a rolling road from first to last run, in fact "correct", if there is such a thing, procedure is to specifically make at least three runs, on a DD rolling road there is no reason at all why runs within 5 bhp can't be normal providing the car is set up properly, by that I mean strapped down properly with correct gear ratio set using a ramp rate that suits the car, its mods and its mod state.. 
Have to say I benchmark every car I do using the DeltaDash software now, why ? Unfortunately so I can prove that a car is still as good as it was mapped after some muppet or other has tried to convince the owner that its cr*p,
the telling part of those runs is not the power and torque fugures but the speed to speed segment times, they don't lie. Mapped a Forester this am that generated better times than a good P1 from 30 to 70 and was within 0.1 of sec of the 70 to 90 time, 2.5 XT with a VF39 turbo installed.
Harvey I use your car as an example because it is such a good example, yes I do spend an inordinant amount of time working on the details, always have and always will.
I am honestly not interested in the Apexi v other scenario, any ecu is just yet another tool used to improve a cars performamnce, the Link in the Sti6 was denegrated as being crude yet ... They all do a job within their limits.
Any car can be improved, and I can/could and have improved on any rolling road map, I improve my own car daily, thats because I drive it daily. Its not good enough to "visit" a load site btw, if you want to do that the engine dyno is a far better tool.
Andy has echoed my own comments and thinking, a rolling road generates a very artificial environment, numbers are a dangerous thing, those that rely on numbers can and will be caught out. You need to be able to feel how a car is reacting as you make adjustments, is it happy, is it struggling, the number may be as expected but if the car is on the ragged edge ...
So again to say the rollers are a tool which can be used to assist in creating the end result, use it like one and you gain, rely on it soley, and sooner or later you will fail.
Anyone who crys over 20 bhp more or less from rolling road to rolling road is really not understanding reality. Is the car slower speed to speed, far better measurement.
I laugh the most when someone makes the statement "our rollers are the most accurate", accuracy implies that the figure it produces is true ... something we all should know is not achievable, some one says "our rollers are callibrated", to what traceable standard ? If a measuring instrument like say a micrometer is "calibrated" its accuracy and ability to measure is tested over its range. This is done using a known dimensional entity that has itself been proven "accurate", for measuring equipment physical constants are used to establish this. So now what "known dimensional entity" is used to callibrate your rolling roads ? Load cells can be callibrated, and thats what each roller is of course but in prder to truly callibrate it must be compared with a load cell of known precision.
Martyn your comment about being "**** on" makes a huge assumption, how do you know what a standard car is, manufacturers quoted figs, lol, Japanese car manufacturers quoted agreed limits for years, however they rarely stuck to them. Nice call pouncing on Andy/my use of Deltadash ... gained you a point.
Internal callibration procedures (to the rolling road) doesn't mean that the rollers are "correct" or "accurate", merely that the system, as designed, is working within some specified limits.
So a rolling road is a comparitor and its about time owners and operators acknowledged that, otherwise why do they all produce such different results ? As a means to run a car dynamicaly with the vehicle static then second to none, there is no other device that allows real time diagnostics to be carried out, many times I have benefited from being able to do this. But as a means to mimic road dynamics, load impedance and conditions ... no I think not.
Oh and whatever rolling road is used by those at the top to assist them attain there goals would be the "one to have" I guess, the fact that a DD one is used by the Rigolis is nothing more than that was what they had to use. I don't think that their use of that make of rollers has anything to do with their success, far from it. Red paint is red.
bob
Have to say I benchmark every car I do using the DeltaDash software now, why ? Unfortunately so I can prove that a car is still as good as it was mapped after some muppet or other has tried to convince the owner that its cr*p,
the telling part of those runs is not the power and torque fugures but the speed to speed segment times, they don't lie. Mapped a Forester this am that generated better times than a good P1 from 30 to 70 and was within 0.1 of sec of the 70 to 90 time, 2.5 XT with a VF39 turbo installed. Harvey I use your car as an example because it is such a good example,
yes I do spend an inordinant amount of time working on the details, always have and always will. I am honestly not interested in the Apexi v other scenario, any ecu is just yet another tool used to improve a cars performamnce, the Link in the Sti6 was denegrated as being crude yet ... They all do a job within their limits.
Any car can be improved, and I can/could and have improved on any rolling road map, I improve my own car daily, thats because I drive it daily. Its not good enough to "visit" a load site btw, if you want to do that the engine dyno is a far better tool.
Andy has echoed my own comments and thinking, a rolling road generates a very artificial environment, numbers are a dangerous thing, those that rely on numbers can and will be caught out. You need to be able to feel how a car is reacting as you make adjustments, is it happy, is it struggling, the number may be as expected but if the car is on the ragged edge ...
So again to say the rollers are a tool which can be used to assist in creating the end result, use it like one and you gain, rely on it soley, and sooner or later you will fail.
Anyone who crys over 20 bhp more or less from rolling road to rolling road is really not understanding reality. Is the car slower speed to speed, far better measurement.
I laugh the most when someone makes the statement "our rollers are the most accurate", accuracy implies that the figure it produces is true ... something we all should know is not achievable, some one says "our rollers are callibrated", to what traceable standard ? If a measuring instrument like say a micrometer is "calibrated" its accuracy and ability to measure is tested over its range. This is done using a known dimensional entity that has itself been proven "accurate", for measuring equipment physical constants are used to establish this. So now what "known dimensional entity" is used to callibrate your rolling roads ? Load cells can be callibrated, and thats what each roller is of course but in prder to truly callibrate it must be compared with a load cell of known precision.
Martyn your comment about being "**** on" makes a huge assumption, how do you know what a standard car is, manufacturers quoted figs, lol, Japanese car manufacturers quoted agreed limits for years, however they rarely stuck to them. Nice call pouncing on Andy/my use of Deltadash ... gained you a point.
Internal callibration procedures (to the rolling road) doesn't mean that the rollers are "correct" or "accurate", merely that the system, as designed, is working within some specified limits.
So a rolling road is a comparitor and its about time owners and operators acknowledged that, otherwise why do they all produce such different results ? As a means to run a car dynamicaly with the vehicle static then second to none, there is no other device that allows real time diagnostics to be carried out, many times I have benefited from being able to do this. But as a means to mimic road dynamics, load impedance and conditions ... no I think not.
Oh and whatever rolling road is used by those at the top to assist them attain there goals would be the "one to have" I guess, the fact that a DD one is used by the Rigolis is nothing more than that was what they had to use. I don't think that their use of that make of rollers has anything to do with their success, far from it. Red paint is red.
bob
18 November 2006, 09:53 PM
#143
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Have to say I benchmark every car I do using the DeltaDash software now, why ? Unfortunately so I can prove that a car is still as good as it was mapped after some muppet or other has tried to convince the owner that its cr*p,
I like Steve have made at least 1 offer of a free remap to one of your customers if I couldn't gain him power...I cant accept for one second that if I gave the man 20hp more on the rollers his car would be slower on the road...If that was the case all of my Superchips customers for years would all be back complaining wouldn't they...Lets not forget that most modern Turbo diesels run mafs too and I have never had one complaint...
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Martyn your comment about being "**** on" makes a huge assumption, how do you know what a standard car is, manufacturers quoted figs, lol, Japanese car manufacturers quoted agreed limits for years, however they rarely stuck to them.
bob
bob
We tune approx 5-8 cars a day and have done for 30 years as the old boy has already pointed out..All makes , all models...This gives us a much larger data base to call on to check hp and torque figures are as should be or at least bloody close enough..As you have never visited our operation you wouldn't know this and of course "assumption is the mother" you know the rest...
Martyn
18 November 2006, 10:05 PM
#144
Subaru Tuning Specialist
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Nice advert Martyn 
Alan, I think you have been stuck in your dyno cell too long sniffing fumes No idea whatever about whats going on.......... indeed !
Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
when road testing, you have absolutely no idea whatever about what's going on, other than the tight feel from your ***....
No idea whatever about whats going on.......... indeed !
Last edited by Andy.F; 18 November 2006 at 10:08 PM.
18 November 2006, 10:23 PM
#145
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I will provide a car for the above mentioned challenge! LOL.
Mind you, would cost me a fortune coming down to Devon or there abouts.
But i love the word free
Mind you, would cost me a fortune coming down to Devon or there abouts.
But i love the word free
18 November 2006, 10:28 PM
#146
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Originally Posted by MaDaSS
I will provide a car for the above mentioned challenge! LOL.
Mind you, would cost me a fortune coming down to Devon or there abouts.
But i love the word free
Mind you, would cost me a fortune coming down to Devon or there abouts.
But i love the word free
Great thread guys and makes great reading.
18 November 2006, 10:35 PM
#147
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Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Andy has echoed my own comments and thinking, a rolling road generates a very artificial environment, numbers are a dangerous thing, those that rely on numbers can and will be caught out. You need to be able to feel how a car is reacting as you make adjustments, is it happy, is it struggling, the number may be as expected but if the car is on the ragged edge ...
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
So a rolling road is a comparitor and its about time owners and operators acknowledged that, otherwise why do they all produce such different results ? bob
Andy
18 November 2006, 11:13 PM
#148
Originally Posted by MartynJ
...I cant accept for one second that if I gave the man 20hp more on the rollers his car would be slower on the road...If that was the case all of my Superchips customers for years would all be back complaining wouldn't they...Lets not forget that most modern Turbo diesels run mafs too and I have never had one complaint..
20 HP on a top end tuned engine/car is completely different (read slower in the real world) to a car that has extra grunt early on, where the owners will probably be driving, even if that same car works out on the rollers 20HP less. Thats is what mappers like Andy and Bob (and others) do - they base it on the real world.
Its about the area under the curve and how it drives on the road NOT the top value produced on the best of however many runs on a dyno.
I still think dyno's are useful as a guide or whether road mapping possible though but I would always want my car set up on the road or the track...
18 November 2006, 11:20 PM
#149
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by Andy.F
Nice advert Martyn
I couldn't be bloody bothered to do anything as underhanded....
18 November 2006, 11:30 PM
#150
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by dynamix
I think that is where you are wrong
20 HP on a top end tuned engine/car is completely different (read slower in the real world) to a car that has extra grunt early on,
20 HP on a top end tuned engine/car is completely different (read slower in the real world) to a car that has extra grunt early on,
20hp was just a general figure...It stands to reason that SHOULD I remap a road tuned car I wouldn't just be looking at the top end but everywhere in the map..We all know about the "Give them torque they will think they have horsepower" way in which some people operate..What I am saying is even if you only arrive at the same result in the middle of the curve as the previous mapper but add 20hp at the top the car will be faster still...