Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road?
16 November 2006, 10:38 PM
#65
Bloody hell, what a read.
I find it hard to accept all this fuss.
Mapping on the road is real. The driver of the car can give the mapper any set of conditions that are sure to be unrepeatable, so what?
Andy said above about joining the engine map together to give a smooth runner rather than just BHP max.
I went to Andy because he has actually done the sport that my car is aimed at and understands the 'qualities' needed.
Here i think is an important factor, the mapper knows the application.
The map will have been drawn with that in mind, the fuel used etc, and he will try very hard to get the best result for the driver.
The real test is how the car meets the conditions, and i for one got the results I wanted (nearly) and if I were a better, younger more committed driver (ie John Stevenson) the car would go much further.
Guess who mapped John's hillclimber?
Just what can be better than mapping a road/hillclimb car than on the road? And don't say 'a hillclimb' as they only last 50/60 seconds, some less than 33!
As a customer you have a clear choice:
Find the specialist who meets your needs (experience/reputation/awareness)
and then let him do what you pay for, allowing them to exercise all the above to your car.
If that involves RR or RR + road or road only then fine.
I believe it is the last one. Perfectly happy with that, and collected 8 pots this year, 2nd in class in both Championships against a 550bhp EVO RS on slicks!
I'll stick with AndyF map skills and the local Bye pass as it works.
Got that off my chest
Vented my spleen on this instead of my rear diff issue!!
Graham.
I find it hard to accept all this fuss.
Mapping on the road is real. The driver of the car can give the mapper any set of conditions that are sure to be unrepeatable, so what?
Andy said above about joining the engine map together to give a smooth runner rather than just BHP max.
I went to Andy because he has actually done the sport that my car is aimed at and understands the 'qualities' needed.
Here i think is an important factor, the mapper knows the application.
The map will have been drawn with that in mind, the fuel used etc, and he will try very hard to get the best result for the driver.
The real test is how the car meets the conditions, and i for one got the results I wanted (nearly) and if I were a better, younger more committed driver (ie John Stevenson) the car would go much further.
Guess who mapped John's hillclimber?
Just what can be better than mapping a road/hillclimb car than on the road? And don't say 'a hillclimb' as they only last 50/60 seconds, some less than 33!
As a customer you have a clear choice:
Find the specialist who meets your needs (experience/reputation/awareness)
and then let him do what you pay for, allowing them to exercise all the above to your car.
If that involves RR or RR + road or road only then fine.
I believe it is the last one. Perfectly happy with that, and collected 8 pots this year, 2nd in class in both Championships against a 550bhp EVO RS on slicks!
I'll stick with AndyF map skills and the local Bye pass as it works.
Got that off my chest
Vented my spleen on this instead of my rear diff issue!!
Graham.
16 November 2006, 11:17 PM
#67
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We like to test at Castle Combe. We're setting up the new Adrenaline Motorsport Impreza based kit car, and we'll be up there soon with it.
We'll set it up on the dyno, and test it on the track! Perfect..
We'll set it up on the dyno, and test it on the track! Perfect..
17 November 2006, 12:27 AM
#68
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: devon
Posts: 2,944
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
I know of one owner who was told his car was producing 77 bhp and 70 odd ft lbs less than it previously recorded on three different rolling roads and repeated again on one of them after being dynoed at this establishment. This car had been mapped on the road btw not on the rollers. The proprieter advised that the only cure was to remap it (lol).
cheers
Bob
cheers
Bob
bet he was gutted
i'll get me coat
17 November 2006, 01:21 AM
#69
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under your bonnet
Posts: 9,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy.F
Martyn
I think you will find that the one in the time attack series doesn't run a maf (big difference) and that result may just have had more to do with the driver than the car in that particular case
I think you will find that the one in the time attack series doesn't run a maf (big difference) and that result may just have had more to do with the driver than the car in that particular case
as does the 2.0l version
neither was driven by a 22yr old TVR mechanic.
Somehow won 1st and 2nd in the Saloon car car championship of the Tuner Gp this year.
Oh and both and all others are mapped purely on the dyno.
Sorry, just had to add that !
Carry on.
Andy
17 November 2006, 08:19 AM
#70
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We once had a guy in who refused to accept that there was something wrong with his car, despite being way down on power, even though we stuck another car on the rollers, just to show that our figures were correct.
The car we put on popped out the 320 bhp we knew it had, and the other guys was around 280 or so from memory. His boost and AFR was way off. We figured it was likely that he had a fault, rather than bad mapping.
I believe he wouldn't even contemplate a problem, even though it was obvious, merely because of the reputation of the mapper involved!
We neither suggested that it wasn't mapped properly, nor ran down the guy who set it up. We just suggested getting it looked at.
You just can't help everybody!
The car we put on popped out the 320 bhp we knew it had, and the other guys was around 280 or so from memory. His boost and AFR was way off. We figured it was likely that he had a fault, rather than bad mapping.
I believe he wouldn't even contemplate a problem, even though it was obvious, merely because of the reputation of the mapper involved!
We neither suggested that it wasn't mapped properly, nor ran down the guy who set it up. We just suggested getting it looked at.
You just can't help everybody!
17 November 2006, 08:59 AM
#71
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by Fuzz
Oh and both and all others are mapped purely on the dyno.
Sorry, just had to add that !
Carry on.
Andy
Sorry, just had to add that !
Carry on.
Andy
Originally Posted by swifty.....!
after a week or so he was having trouble with car so took it back to powerstation no extra parts fitted but on this occasion they mapped the car on the road took an hour. anyway on returning home did same as above as he thought the car was faster. so did runs and this time i couldn't keep up with him just pulled away in every gear.
Are you also saying the car wasn't driven by an Internationally successful racing driver ? Keen Motorsport - Home because here Litchfield Imports it says it was ?Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 17 November 2006 at 09:15 AM.
17 November 2006, 09:08 AM
#72
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under your bonnet
Posts: 9,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Type25 is a road car, I'm not on about the race car.
Race car does run MoTec and MAP as you say.
Swifty's was a one off...
I'm not getting into a discussion about it, just wanted to put the point across I have.
Andy
Race car does run MoTec and MAP as you say.
Swifty's was a one off...
I'm not getting into a discussion about it, just wanted to put the point across I have.
Andy
17 November 2006, 09:25 AM
#73
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The second session Richard from power station who looks after all the cars mapping decided to see how much boost we could run. The car would normally run about 1.8 bar boost he turned it up to about 2.2 bar. The car went much better but unfortunately it was too much for the engine and was missing under full load so we had to turn it back down to 1.8 - 1.9 bar.
17 November 2006, 09:55 AM
#74
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: www.Litchfieldimports.co.uk
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy.F
I think you will find that the one in the time attack series doesn't run a maf (big difference) and that result may just have had more to do with the driver than the car in that particular case
The opposition weren’t to shabby! You will always have dyno owners standing up for there investment and likewise the guys that map on the road are bound to defend their situation. It’s not rocket science, there are no "gurus" that magically place spark and fuel where others do not. The only thing that matters is experience and customers should be pleased that the Subaru community has more experienced mappers than most.
Iain
17 November 2006, 10:07 AM
#75
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: www.Litchfieldimports.co.uk
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy.F
Surely this would already have been known from the mapping on the rollers
17 November 2006, 03:42 PM
#76
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,034
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i thought andyf had advert singing praises of dastek remapping in national magazine recently!
my car was mapped on road as that is where i drive it not on a rolling road
martin-tsl tuned
my car was mapped on road as that is where i drive it not on a rolling road
martin-tsl tuned
17 November 2006, 05:34 PM
#79
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Martin.
Without labouring the point too much, there has to be some sense injected into this thread. The notion that it's "road versus rolling road" is just plain ridiculous for several reasons. Firstly, no-one has suggested that it's reasonable to set a car up by any method at all without testing it properly. Of course we road test cars, and adjust accordingly. I will crawl over hot coals to get the result I want if necessary.
You cannot safely set up a car on a public road and that's the end of it. Not by adhering to the law anyway. 70 mph ... then what? Should we all move to the Isle of Man? I glanced outside this morning to see rain coming down in sheets... a good time to tune a car? well yes actually, as I have invested in a dyno cell.
Setting up part load and general mapping on the road is fine, and desirable. Flat out running can only safely be attempted on a test track or dyno.
There may be all kinds of reasons why a tuner would select whatever method they choose, but if you don't have a dyno, or use someone else's, that has to be a disadvantage. I don't know any tuner who hasn't used a dyno, or wished he had his own. A dyno isn't all about flat out running, and I'd love to get yet another sceptic in my cell and prove it yet again, as I have so many times before. We can run fast or slow, testing at varying speeds and loads, and all with full data logging, in real time, for as long as we need to. Don't talk to me about fans! unless you also fully understand the effect of charge temp as I do, and appreciate the fact that temperature is an issue wherever you are. It doesn't magically go away when you're on a track! as those of us who race will tell you.
I cannot believe, that if you offered someone who tunes engines a free top rate dyno, with the place to house it and run it, they'd say "no thanks".
In no way am I denigrating the sterling work done by other tuners, indeed I'm very grateful for the input I've had from one in particular. I am dissapointed by the rumour mongering that appears to suggest that someone who operates a dyno cell must be in some way inferior! poppycock I say...
If I didn't have a dyno, I wouldn't have the options I can choose from, and I'd have to get out there and break the law, and drive in conditions that don't suit, hot, cold, wet, dry, busy, whatever, and I'd have to put up with the lack of the most useful tool imaginable.
Without labouring the point too much, there has to be some sense injected into this thread. The notion that it's "road versus rolling road" is just plain ridiculous for several reasons. Firstly, no-one has suggested that it's reasonable to set a car up by any method at all without testing it properly. Of course we road test cars, and adjust accordingly. I will crawl over hot coals to get the result I want if necessary.
You cannot safely set up a car on a public road and that's the end of it. Not by adhering to the law anyway. 70 mph ... then what? Should we all move to the Isle of Man? I glanced outside this morning to see rain coming down in sheets... a good time to tune a car? well yes actually, as I have invested in a dyno cell.
Setting up part load and general mapping on the road is fine, and desirable. Flat out running can only safely be attempted on a test track or dyno.
There may be all kinds of reasons why a tuner would select whatever method they choose, but if you don't have a dyno, or use someone else's, that has to be a disadvantage. I don't know any tuner who hasn't used a dyno, or wished he had his own. A dyno isn't all about flat out running, and I'd love to get yet another sceptic in my cell and prove it yet again, as I have so many times before. We can run fast or slow, testing at varying speeds and loads, and all with full data logging, in real time, for as long as we need to. Don't talk to me about fans! unless you also fully understand the effect of charge temp as I do, and appreciate the fact that temperature is an issue wherever you are. It doesn't magically go away when you're on a track! as those of us who race will tell you.
I cannot believe, that if you offered someone who tunes engines a free top rate dyno, with the place to house it and run it, they'd say "no thanks".
In no way am I denigrating the sterling work done by other tuners, indeed I'm very grateful for the input I've had from one in particular. I am dissapointed by the rumour mongering that appears to suggest that someone who operates a dyno cell must be in some way inferior! poppycock I say...
If I didn't have a dyno, I wouldn't have the options I can choose from, and I'd have to get out there and break the law, and drive in conditions that don't suit, hot, cold, wet, dry, busy, whatever, and I'd have to put up with the lack of the most useful tool imaginable.
17 November 2006, 06:18 PM
#81
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by harvey
I think you mean this :
Andy Forrest. Andy Forrest Performance.
Andy Forrest. Andy Forrest Performance.
I still don't use one though, despite offers of free use from numerous tuners throughout the country I prefer to map on the road.
Iain
I wasn't having a pop at your car or achievements, it is an excellent piece of kit. I was only suggesting that on a circuit the driver is as big a factor in lap times as power.
I find it hard to believe your mechanic Andy when he says ALL the mapping is done on the rollers. I would be most surprised if you didn't make mapping changes during your full days testing at Silverstone ?
Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
You cannot safely set up a car on a public road and that's the end of it. Not by adhering to the law anyway. 70 mph ... then what? Should we all move to the Isle of Man? .
My opinion remains the reverse of yours, you can't safely set up a maf equiped car on a rolling road.
Andy
17 November 2006, 06:27 PM
#82
Can I add (sorry to sound like Andy's 'fan club') but we mapped on the byepass in 3rd/4th and no dangerous max speed hero stuff. Only cool calm and collected (that's andy) while I did exactly what i was told.
I do not blatt around putting others in danger and Andy does NOT ask you to, but i do feel i got the result i needed. (twice now)
I repeat:
Chose a mapper who knows what you want, and let him 'do it his way'.
If Andy was a mapper who used a RR only, who am I to question that?
I happily bring Andy down from Scotland to do my car as it is done right to my mind.
A very very enlightening thread; there are 3 or 4 on Snet at the mo and it is a delight to read and participate. About time too!
I thank those contributing to them all.
Graham.
I do not blatt around putting others in danger and Andy does NOT ask you to, but i do feel i got the result i needed. (twice now)
I repeat:
Chose a mapper who knows what you want, and let him 'do it his way'.
If Andy was a mapper who used a RR only, who am I to question that?
I happily bring Andy down from Scotland to do my car as it is done right to my mind.
A very very enlightening thread; there are 3 or 4 on Snet at the mo and it is a delight to read and participate. About time too!
I thank those contributing to them all.
Graham.
17 November 2006, 06:32 PM
#83
It seems that the use RR only crew is actually very small or non-existent. Most will use RR to do the full power high speed stuff to save from doing that on the public highway. But and it is a big but, they all road test or track test to fine tune the map or getting it running smoothly.
If everyone had access to unlimited unrestricted roads - surely the road would be used by all and dynos would become virtually unused?
If everyone had access to unlimited unrestricted roads - surely the road would be used by all and dynos would become virtually unused?
17 November 2006, 06:52 PM
#84
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by dynamix
If everyone had access to unlimited unrestricted roads - surely the road would be used by all and dynos would become virtually unused?
When I was down at Alans in Plymouth last year in fact it was snowing !Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 17 November 2006 at 06:55 PM.
17 November 2006, 07:43 PM
#86
Andy :
What Alan, Maryn, dynamix, myself and others are saying is that a combination of road and rolling road gave the best possible results. NOT one or the other.
My opinion remains the reverse of yours, you can't safely set up a maf equiped car on a rolling road.
17 November 2006, 07:46 PM
#87
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe there have been classes organised by the EFI 101 forums?
As to making rolling roads redundant ( ! ) I think you first have to realise that there is a World outside Subarus.
In my workshop as we speak ...
1959 Jaguar XK 150
1969 Dodge Charger
1970 Lotus Cortina
1988 Lotus Esprit
2 x Ford Capri 2.8 turbos
Rover coupe turbo
Suzuki Swift turbo
GT4 Celica
2 x Skylines
Evo 6
Evo 7
Evo 8
3 x Starlet turbos
oh, and 6 x Imprezas!
coming in on Monday, 1967 Mustang and 1984 Corvette.
They all go on the rollers!
Hi Andy... I recall your visit with much clarity, including your appreciation of our dyno cell! We actually tore it all down and rebuilt it again in the new place! lol...
As to making rolling roads redundant ( ! ) I think you first have to realise that there is a World outside Subarus.
In my workshop as we speak ...
1959 Jaguar XK 150
1969 Dodge Charger
1970 Lotus Cortina
1988 Lotus Esprit
2 x Ford Capri 2.8 turbos
Rover coupe turbo
Suzuki Swift turbo
GT4 Celica
2 x Skylines
Evo 6
Evo 7
Evo 8
3 x Starlet turbos
oh, and 6 x Imprezas!
coming in on Monday, 1967 Mustang and 1984 Corvette.
They all go on the rollers!
Hi Andy... I recall your visit with much clarity, including your appreciation of our dyno cell! We actually tore it all down and rebuilt it again in the new place! lol...
17 November 2006, 08:07 PM
#89
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by harvey
Andy :
What Alan, Maryn, dynamix, myself and others are saying is that a combination of road and rolling road gave the best possible results. NOT one or the other.
What Alan, Maryn, dynamix, myself and others are saying is that a combination of road and rolling road gave the best possible results. NOT one or the other.
Accelleration times ?
Top Speeds ?
Driveability ?
Dyno result ?
3:1 to the road tuners I'd say
Dyno tuners can always get the "result" they want note - I'm not suggesting any of the dyno operators on here would fix results.
Accelleration times and top speeds can however be measured totally independantly. The driver/owner can assess the driveability improvement during road mapping.
17 November 2006, 08:45 PM
#90
Results is a combination of all the above. In my experience any road mapped cars, perfected on the rollers are improved and not just in terms of ultimate power.
As you seem to have forgotten, in late October, when I confided in you, in relation to the Sigma ECU, Steve Simpson and TEGsport, you contacted Teg Sport and offered £200 per day for the use of their rollers. Do you remember now?
This is also puzzling as you said you were offered free dyno time by various RR operators.
Do you remember stating this :
Two people have told me you have made this statement.
Next you will be telling me you do not know who RB5289 is.
You use a G-Tech Road Dyno or similar. What will be more accurate, Your £350 Road Dyno or a Dyno Dynamics £70,000 Rolling Road with a competant operator.?
I did when ? it must have just been in general conversation or when you were discussing fitting the ***** ECU with me ? Mapping a new type of ECU from scratch would benefit from initial set up on a RR but thats not what I do.
This is also puzzling as you said you were offered free dyno time by various RR operators.
Do you remember stating this :
To get the last 10 bhp you need the rollers
Next you will be telling me you do not know who RB5289 is.
You use a G-Tech Road Dyno or similar. What will be more accurate, Your £350 Road Dyno or a Dyno Dynamics £70,000 Rolling Road with a competant operator.?