Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road? - Page 10 - ScoobyNet.com - Subaru Enthusiast Forum

Go Back  ScoobyNet.com - Subaru Enthusiast Forum > Technical / Subaru Modifications > General Technical
Reload this Page >

Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road?

Notices

Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road?

Reply

 
 
 
Old 28 November 2006, 08:24 AM
  #271  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

Excuse me, but an alternative viewpoint doesn't mean I'm knocking anyone!

It's hard to bandy opinions with anyone who doesn't actually own a dyno, but rather has fleeting glimpses of someone else's, particularly if they have a vested interest, as we all do! I recall using the words "pretty much mimics", which means as close as you'll get in that environment. Of course, when you go faster, you have to shove more air out of the way, although I don't know of any tuner who bothers to allow for wind direction or speed, which makes a huge difference.
I still fail to see how anybody could figure that scarcely any test carried out on the public road could be considered scientific, considering the rampant variables involved.
According to some, the only way to achive testing heaven would be to have a dyno cell that goes up and down by a couple of hundred feet, subject to wind and rain, sh-te thrown on the tyres at random intervals, along with the occasional suicidal pedestrian thrown in for good measure.

As I keep saying, WE have the option to test how we like, any time we like. Road. Track. Dyno.
No dyno? no options...

Incidentally, I owned one of those Maha dynos for 20 years. You could enter frontal area, weight and rolling resistance calculated from charts. Interesting!
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 09:00 AM
  #272  
lunar tick
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 814
Default

Very interesting to read about the different engine loadings produced when accelerating on the road compared to rollers. I can see how rollers couldn't exactly duplicate the variable loads produced in open road acceleration.

But supposing you road map a car using a long stretch of flat road. What happens when you later accelerate up a hill, or down an incline? Surely the loadings are then quite different And what about in very windy conditions? Wouldn't it be true that a strong tailwinds would produce different loadings to a strong headwind? Now I'm really confused
lunar tick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 09:32 AM
  #273  
Andy.F
Subaru Tuning Specialist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Default

The mass of the car vs torque output is the primary loading with regard to acceleration. Hills/wind may affect this by say +/- 10% this level of variation is acceptable. Same if you are 4 up instead of on your own, things will differ slightly.
From the accel curve I posted you can see there is a 100% change in accel from low to mid rpm, on the road this will still happen in proportion regardless of inclination or wind.

On the rollers it would stil be a flat rate and therefore at least 50% error on actual.

Andy
Andy.F is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 09:40 AM
  #274  
lunar tick
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 814
Default

Thanks for explaining that Andy - makes sense now
lunar tick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 12:09 PM
  #275  
Aztec Performance Ltd
www.superhids.co.uk
iTrader: (234)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Over 500ft/lbs of torque @ just 1.1bar
Posts: 14,406
Default

#267

Could give a whole new meaning to 'RR shootouts'
Aztec Performance Ltd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 01:55 PM
  #276  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

Andy F says a variation of plus or minus ten per cent is ok, due to wind and gradient variations when road testing.
There was me worrying about two per cent!

I think he's just confirmed what I always figured.
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 06:24 PM
  #277  
Andy.F
Subaru Tuning Specialist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Default

I was referring to the change in acceleration rate Alan. The rolling road will be a minimum of 50% out !
Originally Posted by BOB'5
#267

Could give a whole new meaning to 'RR shootouts'
You may be joking there Bob but thats exactly what we had at the end of the day if only these expensive dynos were so clever !

Last edited by Andy.F; 28 November 2006 at 06:29 PM.
Andy.F is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 07:00 PM
  #278  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

Andy, you are talking rubbish now. You might have got away with that if all we did was run up in just one dynoplot format, but you know and I know there are much more useful test procedures and data available than that.
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?

We set up the Adrenaline Motorsport Murtaya kit car today. ( All Impreza mechanics, but 400 kg lighter! ) We used the dyno and road driving to get where we wanted to go, and we are track testing this weekend. Now what's wrong with that?

I think we all know how clever you are, so don't over egg your pudding old chap. I'd hate to think you come out of this looking pedantic. ( or narrow minded )
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 07:22 PM
  #279  
andythejock01wrx
Orange Club
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,091
Default

Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery

Excuse me, but an alternative viewpoint doesn't mean I'm knocking anyone!
Ahhem ! Doesn't look like that from this ringside seat !

That does rather appear to be your purpose in this little escapade !
andythejock01wrx is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 08:57 PM
  #280  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

Hi there Jock! Not at all, I've been full of praise for my peers in this thread, I'm just defending my position, same as all the others!
I think it's time we all acknowledged the many difficulties involved in this very technical area. It wouldn't be so bad if all we had to contend with were mapping issues. That's the easy bit! the problems come with the wild card you hadn't thought of, like loose clips, split hoses, bad connections, duff dump valves etc. etc. Never mind the daft things the owners do, like fitting the wrong parts then expecting you to deal with it, connecting bits up wrong, bringing cars in with no fuel in the tank... you have to have eyes everywhere and your wits about you and no kidding!
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 09:17 PM
  #281  
harvey
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (48)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Darlington
Posts: 10,421
Default

When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?

Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
harvey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 09:38 PM
  #282  
Andy.F
Subaru Tuning Specialist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Default

You guys just keep focusing on your peak dyno numbers, I'll stick to making quicker cars
Andy.F is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 09:46 PM
  #283  
lunar tick
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 814
Default

Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
Classic!
lunar tick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 10:26 PM
  #284  
Aztec Performance Ltd
www.superhids.co.uk
iTrader: (234)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Over 500ft/lbs of torque @ just 1.1bar
Posts: 14,406
Default

Originally Posted by Andy.F
You guys just keep focusing on your peak dyno numbers, I'll stick to making quicker cars
Aztec Performance Ltd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 10:32 PM
  #285  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

Well ducked there Andy... you have more moves than Ali, more tricks than Shumacher and better lines than the bloke in the corner shop on Coronation Street... If we weren't getting more power now out of all five cars you originally did for us, I'd believe every word you said!
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 28 November 2006, 10:35 PM
  #286  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

With acknowledgement to what you taught us of course!
As I said before, you Yoda, we Jedi Knights!
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 12:42 AM
  #287  
andythejock01wrx
Orange Club
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,091
Default

Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
Hi there Jock!

I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
If one of your patients dies don't you guys normally use the excuse that they were a smoker and were pretty long in the tooth anyway ?!
andythejock01wrx is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 01:13 AM
  #288  
DJ Vinyl Ritchie
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Maradona good; Pele better; George best
Posts: 432
Default

Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
With acknowledgement to what you taught us of course!
As I said before, you Yoda, we Jedi Knights!

I was enjoying this debate! That was until I read Alan's fundamentally flawed quote above.



DJ Vinyl Ritchie............ SN's one and only true DJ and only Jedi warrior on the site
DJ Vinyl Ritchie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 08:03 AM
  #289  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

Death becomes us all! it's just that much better when it's done with real style.

I profusely apologise for the incorrect and clearly usurped Jedi analagy.

In future, I will refer to Andy F as Basil Fawlty, to my Manuel...
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 12:09 PM
  #290  
harvey
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (48)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Darlington
Posts: 10,421
Default

Quote:
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?



Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
Did you miss the above?
harvey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 12:53 PM
  #291  
SiHethers
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 349
Default

Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do
Alan

I think you under-estimate the complexities of the human body

Simon
SiHethers is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 01:17 PM
  #292  
dynamix
RaceDynamix Ecu Remapping
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: near you
Posts: 9,720
Default

I'm going in for a remap soon - I am sure that my legs are misfiring at about 4mph and a slight hesitation before accelerating hard out of the office chair
dynamix is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 01:19 PM
  #293  
Lateral Performance
TOTB X Outright Champions
iTrader: (20)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 8.95 @ 168mph. Zero to 1KM 194.1mph
Posts: 1,150
Default

Originally Posted by SiHethers
Alan

I think you under-estimate the complexities of the human body

Simon

Or, maybe Alan just finds engines a little more complex than some others do


Mark.
Lateral Performance is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 01:44 PM
  #294  
Andy.F
Subaru Tuning Specialist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Default

Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery

In future, I will refer to Andy F as Basil Fawlty, to my Manuel...
lol.......'this' ..... slap on head

Andy

ps thank Martyn for the deltadash data from the dyno run
Andy.F is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 02:53 PM
  #295  
APIDavid
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: @Junc 12, M40 Warwicksh; 01926 614522 CV33 9PL -Use 9GX for Satnav. South Mids Alcatek ECu dealer
Posts: 6,377
Default

Originally Posted by dynamix
I'm going in for a remap soon - I am sure that my legs are misfiring at about 4mph and a slight hesitation before accelerating hard out of the office chair
That'll just be wind! save a fortune on mapping try ' Deflatine '

David APi
APIDavid is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 04:00 PM
  #296  
dynamix
RaceDynamix Ecu Remapping
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: near you
Posts: 9,720
Default

It could be my Caffeine injectors have reached their maximum duty cycle and are causing me to lean out over 3 random thoughts per min. I will get it checked out along with the Exhaust system David - thanks for the tip
dynamix is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 06:23 PM
  #297  
Alan Jeffery
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Default

[QUOTE=Lateral Performance]Or, maybe Alan just finds engines a little more complex than some others do


I think maybe Lateral is too Literal!
Alan Jeffery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29 November 2006, 08:41 PM
  #298  
ZEN Performance
Former Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wellingborough, Northamptonshire
Posts: 2,859
Default

That is not my generally experience. Some cars benefit from trying to "find" power on the rollers, but I have had many instances of mapping on the road and feeling that the "tune" was too agressive on the rollers.

Some cars benefit from the rollers post mapping, but for a number of these cars, I would say that the difference is that the car owner is not in control of the car, or in paticular the throttle.

Ecutek cars are a different beast, as they generally run closer to the knock threshold all the time, as they have active ignition control. And while you can make good power on a few runs, you will often find the ECU has different ideas on the road, sometimes giving more, sometimes less timing than acheived on the rollers.

The instant feedback of the rollers is good, but I have had some serious problems with my car, even on rollers that boast about how easily they can run cars with serious power. And TMIC cars are an absolute pain to run on the rollers representatively.

However, as I've said, I seek to improve the situation for my own purposes. I will still not care paticularly for rolling road shootout results.

Paul

Originally Posted by harvey
Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
ZEN Performance is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30 November 2006, 10:23 AM
  #299  
john banks
Scooby Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Default

I wanted to be a motor trader, but I didn't have the qualifications
john banks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30 November 2006, 12:12 PM
  #300  
New_scooby_04
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
 
New_scooby_04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,688
Default

Originally Posted by john banks
I wanted to be a motor trader, but I didn't have the qualifications
Ah, Dr. Banks. I know, isn't it awful; these days our doctorates don't even get us to the position of a 1 star employee in McDs!!

Dr. Ns "do you want fries with that mate?" 04
New_scooby_04 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply
 
 
 
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Iqy7861
Engine Management and ECU Remapping
22
12 October 2015 09:21 AM
ossett2k2
Engine Management and ECU Remapping
15
23 September 2015 09:11 AM
ossett2k2
General Technical
9
13 September 2015 09:35 AM
alcazar
Other Marques
9
09 September 2015 05:42 PM

Forum Jump

Thread Tools
Search this Thread