Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road?
28 November 2006, 08:24 AM
#271
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Excuse me, but an alternative viewpoint doesn't mean I'm knocking anyone!
It's hard to bandy opinions with anyone who doesn't actually own a dyno, but rather has fleeting glimpses of someone else's, particularly if they have a vested interest, as we all do! I recall using the words "pretty much mimics", which means as close as you'll get in that environment. Of course, when you go faster, you have to shove more air out of the way, although I don't know of any tuner who bothers to allow for wind direction or speed, which makes a huge difference.
I still fail to see how anybody could figure that scarcely any test carried out on the public road could be considered scientific, considering the rampant variables involved.
According to some, the only way to achive testing heaven would be to have a dyno cell that goes up and down by a couple of hundred feet, subject to wind and rain, sh-te thrown on the tyres at random intervals, along with the occasional suicidal pedestrian thrown in for good measure.
As I keep saying, WE have the option to test how we like, any time we like. Road. Track. Dyno.
No dyno? no options...
Incidentally, I owned one of those Maha dynos for 20 years. You could enter frontal area, weight and rolling resistance calculated from charts. Interesting!
It's hard to bandy opinions with anyone who doesn't actually own a dyno, but rather has fleeting glimpses of someone else's, particularly if they have a vested interest, as we all do! I recall using the words "pretty much mimics", which means as close as you'll get in that environment. Of course, when you go faster, you have to shove more air out of the way, although I don't know of any tuner who bothers to allow for wind direction or speed, which makes a huge difference.
I still fail to see how anybody could figure that scarcely any test carried out on the public road could be considered scientific, considering the rampant variables involved.
According to some, the only way to achive testing heaven would be to have a dyno cell that goes up and down by a couple of hundred feet, subject to wind and rain, sh-te thrown on the tyres at random intervals, along with the occasional suicidal pedestrian thrown in for good measure.
As I keep saying, WE have the option to test how we like, any time we like. Road. Track. Dyno.
No dyno? no options...
Incidentally, I owned one of those Maha dynos for 20 years. You could enter frontal area, weight and rolling resistance calculated from charts. Interesting!
28 November 2006, 09:00 AM
#272
Very interesting to read about the different engine loadings produced when accelerating on the road compared to rollers. I can see how rollers couldn't exactly duplicate the variable loads produced in open road acceleration.
But supposing you road map a car using a long stretch of flat road. What happens when you later accelerate up a hill, or down an incline? Surely the loadings are then quite different
And what about in very windy conditions? Wouldn't it be true that a strong tailwinds would produce different loadings to a strong headwind? Now I'm really confused 
But supposing you road map a car using a long stretch of flat road. What happens when you later accelerate up a hill, or down an incline? Surely the loadings are then quite different
And what about in very windy conditions? Wouldn't it be true that a strong tailwinds would produce different loadings to a strong headwind? Now I'm really confused
28 November 2006, 09:32 AM
#273
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The mass of the car vs torque output is the primary loading with regard to acceleration. Hills/wind may affect this by say +/- 10% this level of variation is acceptable. Same if you are 4 up instead of on your own, things will differ slightly.
From the accel curve I posted you can see there is a 100% change in accel from low to mid rpm, on the road this will still happen in proportion regardless of inclination or wind.
On the rollers it would stil be a flat rate and therefore at least 50% error on actual.
Andy
From the accel curve I posted you can see there is a 100% change in accel from low to mid rpm, on the road this will still happen in proportion regardless of inclination or wind.
On the rollers it would stil be a flat rate and therefore at least 50% error on actual.
Andy
28 November 2006, 01:55 PM
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Andy F says a variation of plus or minus ten per cent is ok, due to wind and gradient variations when road testing.
There was me worrying about two per cent!
I think he's just confirmed what I always figured.
There was me worrying about two per cent!
I think he's just confirmed what I always figured.
28 November 2006, 06:24 PM
#277
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I was referring to the change in acceleration rate Alan. The rolling road will be a minimum of 50% out !
You may be joking there Bob but thats exactly what we had at the end of the day 
if only these expensive dynos were so clever !
Originally Posted by BOB'5
#267
Could give a whole new meaning to 'RR shootouts'
Could give a whole new meaning to 'RR shootouts'
if only these expensive dynos were so clever !
Last edited by Andy.F; 28 November 2006 at 06:29 PM.
28 November 2006, 07:00 PM
#278
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Andy, you are talking rubbish now. You might have got away with that if all we did was run up in just one dynoplot format, but you know and I know there are much more useful test procedures and data available than that.
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?
We set up the Adrenaline Motorsport Murtaya kit car today. ( All Impreza mechanics, but 400 kg lighter! ) We used the dyno and road driving to get where we wanted to go, and we are track testing this weekend. Now what's wrong with that?
I think we all know how clever you are, so don't over egg your pudding old chap. I'd hate to think you come out of this looking pedantic. ( or narrow minded )
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?
We set up the Adrenaline Motorsport Murtaya kit car today. ( All Impreza mechanics, but 400 kg lighter! ) We used the dyno and road driving to get where we wanted to go, and we are track testing this weekend. Now what's wrong with that?
I think we all know how clever you are, so don't over egg your pudding old chap. I'd hate to think you come out of this looking pedantic. ( or narrow minded )
28 November 2006, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
Excuse me, but an alternative viewpoint doesn't mean I'm knocking anyone!
That does rather appear to be your purpose in this little escapade !
28 November 2006, 08:57 PM
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Hi there Jock! Not at all, I've been full of praise for my peers in this thread, I'm just defending my position, same as all the others!
I think it's time we all acknowledged the many difficulties involved in this very technical area. It wouldn't be so bad if all we had to contend with were mapping issues. That's the easy bit! the problems come with the wild card you hadn't thought of, like loose clips, split hoses, bad connections, duff dump valves etc. etc. Never mind the daft things the owners do, like fitting the wrong parts then expecting you to deal with it, connecting bits up wrong, bringing cars in with no fuel in the tank... you have to have eyes everywhere and your wits about you and no kidding!
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
I think it's time we all acknowledged the many difficulties involved in this very technical area. It wouldn't be so bad if all we had to contend with were mapping issues. That's the easy bit! the problems come with the wild card you hadn't thought of, like loose clips, split hoses, bad connections, duff dump valves etc. etc. Never mind the daft things the owners do, like fitting the wrong parts then expecting you to deal with it, connecting bits up wrong, bringing cars in with no fuel in the tank... you have to have eyes everywhere and your wits about you and no kidding!
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
28 November 2006, 09:17 PM
#281
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?
Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
28 November 2006, 10:32 PM
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Well ducked there Andy... you have more moves than Ali, more tricks than Shumacher and better lines than the bloke in the corner shop on Coronation Street... If we weren't getting more power now out of all five cars you originally did for us, I'd believe every word you said! 
28 November 2006, 10:35 PM
#286
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With acknowledgement to what you taught us of course!
As I said before, you Yoda, we Jedi Knights!
As I said before, you Yoda, we Jedi Knights!
29 November 2006, 12:42 AM
#287
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Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
Hi there Jock!
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do, there's certainly a big enough enquiry if one of our patients dies!
29 November 2006, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
With acknowledgement to what you taught us of course!
As I said before, you Yoda, we Jedi Knights!
As I said before, you Yoda, we Jedi Knights!
I was enjoying this debate! That was until I read Alan's fundamentally flawed quote above.
DJ Vinyl Ritchie............ SN's one and only true DJ and only Jedi warrior on the site
29 November 2006, 08:03 AM
#289
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Death becomes us all! it's just that much better when it's done with real style.
I profusely apologise for the incorrect and clearly usurped Jedi analagy.
In future, I will refer to Andy F as Basil Fawlty, to my Manuel...
I profusely apologise for the incorrect and clearly usurped Jedi analagy.
In future, I will refer to Andy F as Basil Fawlty, to my Manuel...
29 November 2006, 12:09 PM
#290
Quote:
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?
Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
When you used our rolling road, you seemed quite happy with the results, unless you are now telling us that in actual fact you did a crap job on all five cars?
Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
29 November 2006, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
I've been saying for years that we in the Motor Trade have to know more about our job than Doctors do
I think you under-estimate the complexities of the human body
Simon
29 November 2006, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SiHethers
Alan
I think you under-estimate the complexities of the human body
Simon
I think you under-estimate the complexities of the human body
Simon
Or, maybe Alan just finds engines a little more complex than some others do
Mark.
29 November 2006, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan Jeffery
In future, I will refer to Andy F as Basil Fawlty, to my Manuel...
Andy
ps thank Martyn for the deltadash data from the dyno run
29 November 2006, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dynamix
I'm going in for a remap soon - I am sure that my legs are misfiring at about 4mph and a slight hesitation before accelerating hard out of the office chair
save a fortune on mapping try ' Deflatine ' David APi
29 November 2006, 06:23 PM
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[QUOTE=Lateral Performance]Or, maybe Alan just finds engines a little more complex than some others do
I think maybe Lateral is too Literal!
I think maybe Lateral is too Literal!
29 November 2006, 08:41 PM
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That is not my generally experience. Some cars benefit from trying to "find" power on the rollers, but I have had many instances of mapping on the road and feeling that the "tune" was too agressive on the rollers.
Some cars benefit from the rollers post mapping, but for a number of these cars, I would say that the difference is that the car owner is not in control of the car, or in paticular the throttle.
Ecutek cars are a different beast, as they generally run closer to the knock threshold all the time, as they have active ignition control. And while you can make good power on a few runs, you will often find the ECU has different ideas on the road, sometimes giving more, sometimes less timing than acheived on the rollers.
The instant feedback of the rollers is good, but I have had some serious problems with my car, even on rollers that boast about how easily they can run cars with serious power. And TMIC cars are an absolute pain to run on the rollers representatively.
However, as I've said, I seek to improve the situation for my own purposes. I will still not care paticularly for rolling road shootout results.
Paul
Some cars benefit from the rollers post mapping, but for a number of these cars, I would say that the difference is that the car owner is not in control of the car, or in paticular the throttle.
Ecutek cars are a different beast, as they generally run closer to the knock threshold all the time, as they have active ignition control. And while you can make good power on a few runs, you will often find the ECU has different ideas on the road, sometimes giving more, sometimes less timing than acheived on the rollers.
The instant feedback of the rollers is good, but I have had some serious problems with my car, even on rollers that boast about how easily they can run cars with serious power. And TMIC cars are an absolute pain to run on the rollers representatively.
However, as I've said, I seek to improve the situation for my own purposes. I will still not care paticularly for rolling road shootout results.
Paul
Originally Posted by harvey
Alan:
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
Just out of interest, I assume all of the five cars were running without MAFs???
also
I think that even the most ardent proponent of road mapping has conceded, on more than one occassion that "you need the rollers to get the last 10-15bhp" Is that your understanding?
30 November 2006, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by john banks
I wanted to be a motor trader, but I didn't have the qualifications
Dr. Ns "do you want fries with that mate?" 04