Gary C

Can do 2 things,
1) pay the £30, easy life no hassle and hope you don't get caught again.

2) Get a solicitor, the case seems fairly easy to win. Would think a court would throw it out as the car is 'standard' ie as can be bought from a dealership as new. Higher risk as you may get some complete moron on the bench.

I might be tempted to go for 1 for an easy life, but risky if you get pulled again then option 2 may be harder to take.

Iain McLaren

I suspect that they'd be on the look out, and one £30 payment would quickly become another and another.

To proceed further, the police have to submit a report to the Procurator Fiscal (a copy of which would be available to my dad). If the PF's got any sense (can but hope) they'll laugh at it and realise it's not worth pursuing...

Carl2

That's some noise. A Tornado taking off with reheat approximately 2-300yds away makes you put your fingers in your ears as it's still incredibly loud (120db+) inside the building I worked from.
And when you have to squadrons taking off in pairs and singles for over 1/4hr solid you wonder how you still have any hearing left.

RB5-107

Ian - take a swatch at this. If its regulation 54 he was done for ...

http://www.police-law.co.uk/law/poli...ight=0,exhaust

The key wording here is "...shall not have been altered in any way which makes the noise of escaping gases greater".

The exhaust itself hasn't been altered - I think this refers to you taking any baffles out/ doing a chavvy-nova job of drilling out holes etc. I would argue that as long as you've not modified your Blitz, Afterburner or Ninja to make it louder (hard job I know) then if it falls under 90-something dbs (which I think is the legal max) then they can't do you for it.

And this is your friend !!http://forums.sidc.co.uk/messageview...word1=exhausts

Good luck.

Neil

GC8

It was in excess of 120dB; it might have been 128dB! The Police officers didnt know their ***** from their elbows and placed the tip of the meter in the tailpipe and revved away; in order to make as much noise as possible. Imbeciles.

Simon

pslewis

Not sure about that, I believe the 'spirit' of that law is to stop exhausts being replaced by exhausts which are noisier.

There can be few sounds as nice as the burble of the Boxer Engine ......... but, the pain-in-the-**** of the quiet community is the car driven around with a boom-box booming away and a drainpipe exhaust rattling your windows!

I would like the law to state that a Boxer Engine is immune ..... but, it won't happen - so, right or wrong, you get lumped in with the RoyBacers and the communities are over-the-moon when the 'kiddies' get hauled up and fined for excessive noise!

Pete

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I've been having a think about this, and I may have come up with something. I am no legal beagle, so you will have to check this out.

Afaik they have measured the noise of your car, and then compared it to a standard car. Since yours is louder you are in trouble...that is their case anyway.

You can argue that their measuring was not correct. This is an incredible complex area, and unless the PC has been formally trained he will have no clue about the issues. If you really need some proper guidance on all the complexities of noise meansurement I am sure I can put you in touch with someone. My father is a Health and Safet inspector, and that includes doing some noise work. He can definately find someone who can take you through all of this and act as an expert...but this will NOT be free, far from it....

There is another course of action that I think you can take. They compared your car to a standard Impreza. Yours isn't. Your engine is different, it is a different age, in a different stage of tune, and has several different parts (airbox, whatever) You also have a remap, or whatever, that makes even the standard components work differently to a normal car.

All of the above is totally legal as it has nothing to do with your exhaust system, but it DOES alter the amount of noise that your car makes. For any meaningful comparison to made they need to measure YOUR car with a standard exhause, and then compare it to the one that you have on now. The measurements should be taken on the same day, in the same environment, with the same equipment, using the same method. The measurements should also be taken several times, averaged, and then compated.

The above way is the only method to determine if you are making more noise than a "standard" system.

Playsatan

iTrader: (2)

Isn't there a 2 tier limit in place for so called supercars? Think it has something to do with 0-60 performance. Don't imagine a Subaru would fall under this rule though.

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

The exhaust is EU compliant and that has to be enough. It doent need to be a subaru exhaust. Many cars are fitted with exhausts from Kwik Fit etc and these are not designed in the same way the manufacturers exhausts are, and may make more or less noise after fitment. Millions of people buy pattern exhausts and we cannot assume that they are all illegal because they dont make the same decibel outout as the manufacturers item.
This has to be reason for complaint against the police as to method of testing and opinion offered.

BedHog

I can fart louder than my wife - will I get arrested?

nyscooby

iTrader: (12)

If the police say it is against the law etc to change standard OEm parts on your car for newer or more performance style parts, IE, your exhaust is bigger and louder than the way it was supplied to you.

Why will insurance companies happily insure you with after marktet items.

BECAUSE IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO DO THE CHANGES.

nyscooby

iTrader: (12)

Some one find the Contruction and Use Act regs.

Thats what the police traffic cops should use i beleive.

CyprusScooby

I totally agree with the above. Being a copper I know that for the likes of a speed gun, you have to have it calibrated EVERY day before you use it and you have to be trained on it. It also must be Home Office approved!
This would have to be the same case for any 'Noise Meters'.
I have never heard of any noise meters being approved or being officially issued for use!
These coppers seem to have too much time on their hands! Eithier that or their jealous they can't afford a scoob!!!!

Red Admiral

When are these useless w**kers going to get to grips with real policing work !!

They cannot find murderers - they cannot find burglarers - so what do they pick on the easiest thing around motorists,

I have just come back from Inverness to where I stay - remains nameless - I saw one poor c**t pulled over at North Kessock in a clapped out Peugeot 405 by a plod with nothing better to do and then when I came into my home village - one was there right in front of me !!!

Two weekends ago there was knifing's in the sneck ( sorry local slang for Inverness) and where were the ' good 'ole boys in blue ' - oh yes doin' law abiding motorists for £30 a shot whilst poor innocent bystanders were getting knifed in an Inverness pub - sounds like we have our priorities wrong - chaps !!!

Sorry to rant and rave but the roads up here are brill and plod is just out to ruin everybodies fun - its about time we struck back at this !!

Wot next !!

One really cheesed off Scooby driver in the most beautiful part of the British Isles and also owner of a Group N back box - yike !!!!!

beacherj

Was this done at the road side. because for the test to be used as evidence it need to be done at a DVLA centre and doing 2 drive by readings one at 30mph and one at 60mph & law states with exhaust taken from the MOT testers Guide
hope that helps

p.s If you do query it you'll probaly end up loosing your car for a week or too and paying the costs to transport your car to the nearest testing station

hades

73-74db in what circumstance? No car with a standard exhaust would pass that if that's a reading taken inside the tail pipe with the car at full revs. Almost anything short of an F1 car would pass comfortably if it's taken 20 metres away at tickover. 73dB is not very loud at all. A standard 02 WRX with the OEM exhaust makes 73dB inside the car running in top at a steady 80mph ('A' weighted, measured between drivers & passenger's head, using a calibrated meter). To give another idea, a standard 02STi we measured with prodrive backbox made ~74dB at 1m/45º from tailpipe at tickover on a concrete surface

Quoting a dB reading is pretty meaningless unless you know where/how it is measured

stu_5

I'd strongly encourage him to take this one all the way.

Simple fact being that once it does get to court and proved that they've done this incorrectly and thus been giving out fines incorrectly in the past, they'll then have to refund everyone they've done under the same procedures wont they...?

Good bit of egg on the faces in the local press there.

They are also just going to get worse and worse until they actually understand the correct application of this procedure and the actual extent of the powers they have within the act.

I imagine also that once this gets as far as the procurator fiscal it'll get flung out however, end of the day there not daft- even if the local plod quite clearly is...

Fuzz

Whatever you do.....


















Don't take it up the tailpipe !!!!


Andy

Iain McLaren

It was done in a vehicle rental compound, away from "other road noise", but it was a stationary test, certainly nothing like what you describe!

I can but hope that if the police take it further the procurator fiscal will just laugh at it. Unfortunately this doesn't help the other people who have been caught and have paid the FPN without question.

Perhaps it's time to involve the press. The various local politicians have been quite helpful and supportive, but that's maybe just because there's an election coming up...

Iain McLaren

I believe that once you pay a FPN you give up all rights to appeal against it or complain about it in the future... A nice fair system, wouldn't you say???

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Just remember that the car that they are comparing yours to is totally standard. All you have to do is prove that your car has been modified in some way to make their test invalid. After all if you have fiddled with the management system, airbox or other similar items the amount of noise that the car makes could be different to the one that they used.

Also remember that the law they are using applies only to the exhaust with regard to noise. You can change your airbox to make more noise legally.

You need to take advise, fight it, and let us know how it goes on. It is all well and good us saying that you are OK, but it only matters whether you can win in court

Iain McLaren

I've spoken to my dad, who's been reading your replies and is very grateful to you all!

He's going to reply to the letter Northern Constabulary sent him in reply to his original complaint with the following:

• A statement that he believes NC to be erroneous in their interpretation of the law - that any modification to an exhaust system refers to knocking out baffles / drilling holes in it etc. They'll deny this, but if a law is as unclear as this one appears to be, how could it possibly stand up in court???

• Request the make, model and Home Office approval of the noise meter used, along with exact instructions of use, its calibration certificate for the day of the 'offence' and the accreditation of the officer to use it correctly

• Assert that the noise test was not carried out in accordance with DVLA procedure

• Point out certain inaccuracies (fabrications) of what the police say was said/done at the time of the incident

• State that their assumption that the exhaust is louder than a standard WRX is due to the exhaust being changed is inaccurate - that the engine has been tuned to increase performance etc. What they would have to do is prove that a WRX fitted with the PPP but a standard back box (or entire exhaust system?) is significantly quieter that a WRX with a compete PPP fitted

• Suggest to them that they don't understand how the decibel system works, preferably with references to literature that explains how it does!

• Inform them that certain police forces use Imprezas with the PPP - why would it be legal for them to run 'loud' and not the public?

I think that covers most of the points made in this thread...

I imagine that they'll politely tell him to p*ss off again. I think he should therefore instruct them to pass the matter to the Procurator Fiscal if they do not agree with his arguments, and that he will be filing a complaint with the police watchdog whatever they do!

Cheers,

Iain

PS I'll see if he's willing to post the correspondence on his website in the interests of the motoring public...

PPS I emailed Top Gear about this a while ago, but so far Jezza's not phoned!!!

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Excellent news. I wholly support you and your dad, and wish you the best of luck.

If you think that we can help please just ask I'd also love to hear all of the gory details of how you get on.

EDITED to add that this morning I saw an X plate MY00 police scoobie from North Yorkshire police running around with a PPP exhaust on. Was badged up with Crimestoppers info and was sighted at 10:30am in Melsonby on 24/4/04. I should also note that I walked right up to the car in question and verified visually that it was a PPP exhaust. I also spoke to the officer that was driving the car, he also confirmed that it was a PPP exhaust.

Iain McLaren

You should have asked him if he was aware that it was 'illegal' !!!

There again, he's probably had all humour removed (replaced with sarcasm) and you probably didn't want him giving your own car the once over...

All this makes me kinda glad that when the loud-ish twin-pipe back box on my V6 cavalier rotted away I chose to replace it with a 'standard' one.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I was too busy trying to convince him that he wanted to swap exhausts, and that I happened to have the tools necessary to do this one me

He didn't bite

Iain McLaren

I'm rather bemused by this decibel thing (and I did a degree in Physics!!!). I found this site:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html

and using the "Standard reference levels ("absolute" sound level)" equation on the 2 figures the police quoted (79.0dB and 88.7dB), I reckon that the ratio of the sound pressure of the PPP exhaust to the sound pressure of the WRX exhaust is 3.06 - ie 306% higher.

Whether this needs to be squared or something to obtain the noise level, I don't know...

...what I do know is that unless you specify exactly how to measure the noise level, the value is meaningless.

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Ian

I think

may be a step in the wrong direction. The PPP is an approved manufacturers fitment. The car that your Dads car was compared against was not a WRX PPP but a WRX so the comparison is invalid because:
a) The wrong model was compared.
b) An incorrect assumption was made by the police.
c) The method of testing was not valid.
d) The test gear was not calibrated.
e) The officers were not trained in the test equipment use.
f) The facilities used for testing were not of an approved type.

I think you are digging yourself into a hole if you try any other direction.

Greg

Scooby-Doo

I am surprised Mike Wood or prodrive has yet to respond. If your father loses in court this would have massive implications on the tuning world in general.

vindaloo

The P1 does or so I've heard.

...though that doesn't help the Poster...

J.

GC8

You have m at a disadvantage there as I only did 'O' Level Physics (Grade A though..) My understanding is that a measured 3 dB increase equates to a doubling of the sound pressure, however: perceived increase in noise level may be considerably lower.

Simon