911

Can you get a 63 mm inlet like Alan G's under a red Sti v3 manifold without using spacers?
Having read all this lot (good stuff) might as well wring out as much as possible from the set-up. When API did the head gaskets they fitted studs to the block for the heads, and David commented that the engine(bores/pistons) looked good.
I'm sure that this engine (330 lbft?) and slicks at the wheels will twist terminally the Sti 5 speeder?
Really looking foreward to the build and the results!
911

Andy.F

Looks good Carlos, anyone tried it on a scoob yet ?

911 I have ran 500bhp through my Sti5 box without drama (as has Harvey) although my launches were not on slicks, the sticky dunlops do come close though !

Andy

MorayMackenzie

Alan,

Thanks for the reply.

I guess that, and please feel free to correct me , other than for the initial thrust bearing issue on the TMI and the 20G surge issue, the two turbos are fairly similar out on the road. I don't suppose you remember whereabouts the boost came in with these units?

Sorry if I am bombarding you with questions, it's just I don't know anyone else who has had both of these units fitted on the same car in, I am assuming (again, please correct me if I am wrong), the same configuration (other than the turbo and mapping ). This puts you in a somewhat unique position.

I am curious as to the on road behaviour oI these units as I am wondering which compressor wheel would make a better successor to an 18G in a fast road car application.

Thanks again,

Moray

john banks

Please tell us about the 18G Moray.

AndrewC

911, Yes you can get a 63mm inlet pipe under a V3/4 manifold without spacers, you may need to remove the vertical bracket which supports the fuel lines next to the inlet pipe to get more space to fit it but that's all.

I second John's request for more 18G info !

Andrew...

Andy.F

I'll correct you Moray
These are also the findings of 99% of my customers. Whereas after having 2 substantial failures with the TMI at very low mileage, Alan never risked using it again.

For the benefit of anyone still worried about surge (like Moray ) There has always been a 100% refund guarantee on this turbo if you don't like it.
In fact, as long as I know you are not going to run away with it then I am prepared for customers to take one away and only pay for it when they are happy with the performance

Andy

Pavlo

I am reliably informed that a VF34 is good for 400hp, would anyone care to comment.

Paul

Andy.F

I'll buy a few of them off you mate

Pavlo

I have been threatened with legal action by a trader known to SN and it's members, for alledging that a vf34 is not a 400hp turbo. So I would be interested in peoples views on the power potential of a VF34, and what would be required to make 400hp with one.

Paul

Andy.F

You are joking
I'd say you'd need a 50 shot of nos or run high oxygen content race fuel on a 2.5 ?
It is a common view that the 20G is 40-50 bhp ahead of the VF34 in power potential and 390/410 is the capability of the 20G on Optimax.
Personally I have tuned a VF34 to its limit and still not maxed out 440cc injectors (350 ?)

Andy

Pavlo

I am not joking at all.

The trader in question is well respected by many SN members, and until this morning, that included myself.

Paul

Mr J

LOL@ 400Bhp....We have a guy on are Swedish BBS that has been told the same that a STI9 stock turbo will be abel to produce 400Bhp.... by local vendor

I have had a VF30 on my car and I could in in now way se how it should produce 400Bhp......most have been if holding 2bar to the redline....

the VF30/34 is suposse to be 5%smaller then the VF22 I was informed when I got it.


Jan

dowser

VF34 is a good turbo, but no way will it deliver 400 hp. It 'feels' happy at around 330 hp, but I'm conservative (and use TMIC's!) so you could probably push another 20 or 30 on top of that. No more IMHO.

What did Xavier get on his before swapping to an 05/06? He would be a good comparison and appeared pretty high when he posted a year or so back (370 hp from memory).

The Fixer

I'm sure Carlos H posted compressor maps on 22B of the VF35 and VF34, they looked very similar in terms of lb/min boost delivered. I actually thought that the cold sides of each of those turbos were the same or very similar but the hot side was the difference. VF35 having P15 housing and VF34 having P18 housing. I suspect 400 hp is a long way away for that turbo.

Pavlo

Conrad,

I beleive they share the same compressor side as you say, also VF30 is the same as VF34 but with sleeve bearings.

Paul

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Let them prove otherwise.

Bob

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

There's nothing wrong with naming them either!....


do tell....

The Fixer

I think you hit the nail on the head there, if they are the same compressor housing then 340~350'ish must be about the limit.

Pavlo

I have never considered the VF34 to be a 400hp turbo. But here we are debating the suitability of a td05/06-20g for 400hp, when a VF34 costing 2/3 the price could do it? It would be nice if that were the case.

Paul

The Fixer

lol.


Conrad

RB5263

Hello Fellas,

Been reading this thread with some interest.
I have a VF34 on my RB5 together with the spec shown below.
The injectors (440's) were at 95% duty so the map has been curtailed at the top end so 650's are on order as is an FMIC. However the car made 399 BHP & 382ft/lbs at a recent RR session at Well Lane.
The dyno run was done in 5th gear ( STI 8 six speed Conversion)
http://www.proactive-it.co.uk/scoob/dyno031204.htm

So after the injectors and intercooler are added and mapped I think a further surprise will be gained. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks Guys

STI 9 Tuftrided, Cross drilled Crank:
JE Forged Pistons (0.5mm oversize)
Carillo Rods
ARP Rod bolts
Heads Polished flowed and ported
Cylinder block Over bored
TSL Uprated Oil Pump with oil pressure release valve,
Uprated Clutch release bearing
TSL Equal length tubular header pipe
Group A Down Pipe (3 inch)
TSL decat centre section
TSL Firestorm back box.
Turbo smart BOV
1.2mm Metal Head gaskets
WRC lead copper bearings
WRC head Bolts
Ecutek Remap (1.5 bar Boost)
IHI VF34 roller bearing Turbo.
APS Cold Air Induction kit
Walbro Competition fuel pump
Samco Hoses ( turbo, coolant, ancillary and induction)
Cross drilled and grooved brake discs.
Ferrodo Racing DS2500 brake pads


Transmission
STI 8, 6 speed gearbox conversion
Roger Clark Motorsport Lightweight Flywheel (4.5 kg compared to 11.5 kg for standard)
AP Racing Clutch

Pavlo

It looks very much like your dyno graph is contaminated with an error resulting from overspeeding the rollers. The hump between 5750 and 7000rpm probably isn't representative of your cars actual power, which is more like 370hp.

This problem is very common with this type of dyno, and the definitive answer will come from looking at a curve of the wheel losses from that specific dyno run, it will probably contain a large spike/hump that take the losses from aroun 100 to 140hp.

Do you have a power at the wheels graph.

Paul

tweenierob

Looks like my first graph from PE on the 05/06 450hp iirc

If a VF34 is a 400hp turbo then i apologise for my previous comments Andy F, your 05/06 is a 450hp turbo

Rob

RB5263

I have to agree I thought it was a tad high.

Need to know of a really good rolling road I can use to get an accurate figure.

Any ideas?

That was the only graph I was given btw

tweenierob

Take some large friends with you to sit in the car for the run, it should help.

Rob

RB5263

Incedently, I achieved 317 bhp and 352ft/lbs again at well lane. The day before the new turbo ,induction, fuel pump were fitted and mapped.

http://www.proactive-it.co.uk/dyno101104.jpg

CustomScoobyIOM

I ran a VF35 turbo and IMO 340-350bhp is the max for this turbo.

VF34 with the larger exhaust housing possibly 370bhp as Pavlo says but not 400bhp.

VF35 holds boost 1.7 bar no problems until 6k when it drops to around 1.4bar.

Haven't RR yet though. Will see soon.

Running the VF35 on 550cc injectors, 3" Decat, STI'8' short engine, STI3 heads ported and polished, Standard UK box, Standard 1996 ECU Remapped in a Legacy Saloon.

Cheers,
Jon

Mr J

How much fuel pressure do you run since you have only 440cc's and @ only 95%IDC.... ???



Jan

Pavlo

RB5263,

Not sure on rollers to recommend, depends where you are. You could log you MAf voltage with delta dash for a start, it will tell you if the airflow is maxing out or increasing inline with the power increase you see on the graph. Well Lane should be able to give you a power at the wheels graph which will certainly help if you go back.

Personally I wouldn't worry, your torque results ARE excellent and the spread of power fantastic. Even if it's 370hp it's still a very good result overall, and looks like you have got the best out of the turbo.

If at well lane again, I would try running in 4th on the 6speed to remove the spike, which most often occurs as there is a high amount of residual magnetism in the retarders (brakes) of the rolling road, this creates an amount of drag which is very high to begin as you start the coastdown, but dissipates in the early stages. Reduced wheel speed and/or wheel torque reduces the effect, but speed seems the greatest influence as the retardation available to the brake increases with speed until the rotor is magnetically saturated.

Any Dyno Dynamics or Dastek rollers give generally repeatable results, Bosch rollers seem okay but I haven't seen enough results to satisfy myself.

Paul

AlanG

P20SPD
It'll definitely get you interested in getting your own car back up and running.

Moray
Unfortunately i don't remember when boost came in between the two, but both felt very similar out on the road, with mid 3000's rpm being the area that the car started to feel very strong in terms of torque/power. It was JB that pointed out the TMI was slower spooling than the 20G after comparing RR graphs between mine, his and Andy's, but in the real world of driving, i couldn't honestly tell the difference. I don't doubt the differences by comparing compressor maps, rolling road graphs etc, it's just i couldn't tell when driving out on the road.

What did feel different (and it's strange to say this) is that the TMI felt to be a smoother unit in operation. If you can imagine, it's a bit like driving two identical cars. One is brand new and the other is a few years old. Why does the new one always feel to be the better car? That kind of thing.

As Andy points out, my confidence did take a hit with the TMI after two bearing failures. I wanted it to work as it felt that good, but IIRC there was only one other user of the TMI at the time and he wasn't having any issues with his. At the time, there was also a ding dong going on between certain parties regards the TMI/20G debate, so to minimise any further fanning of flames, i kept the issues of the bearing failures off the board as much as i could.

With that experience, it was more sensible for me to go with the 20G that had had a number of users that had experience of the issues that unit had.
At the time remember, the surge issue was prevalent and experiments had been made with cut back turbine wheels and differing sizes of inlet pipes. As Andy would no doubt admit now, he got it wrong in respect of increasing inlet size in an attempt to minimise surge. Keeping air speed up to the compressor is the way to go to cure it. (You can correct me if i'm wrong or missed out other details which are relevant Andy..)
It was all a fine balance and a learning curve for everybody. At the time it was thought that the std inlet pipe was really restrictive, hence we all thought bigger was better, but as has been seen, this isn't always the case.

If you were to ask me which unit i preferred, i'd have to say that if money/reliability issues weren't a consideration, then i'd plump for the TMI.

The unfortunate thing for the TMI is that because of the price differential between it and the 20G, people always go for the cheaper option. There are also not many users of the TMI out there, so the reliability of it, you could say, is still in question, despite what the developers have done to counteract the issues i had with mine. A shame cause it's a nice unit.