Rich and Mini

Skittles, I'm a Parts Advisor. It was me that said Rover's quality doesn't come near BMWs. Why get arsey?

Rich

fatherpierre

Wasn't he agreeing with you?

Rich and Mini

I took...

"I would be REALLY interested to hear what these informed people with supposed jobs at BMW do!?!?!??!?!?!??!"

...as a dig.

If it wasn't meant as one, I apologise.

Rich

fatherpierre

I see!

Anyway, having owned a few of rovers and several 3 series BMWs I can say Rover are Conference League to BM's Premier League when it comes to build quality and reliability.

The only Rovers I've had that match BMW(reliabilty) are the Honda derived cars (213 and 627). Rovers are terrible cars and I would never entertain one again.



[Edited by fatherpierre - 5/17/2003 2:11:54 AM]

IwantAscoob

Just as this thread could have done no worse.

now rovers are being compared to bmw's

oh behave

fatherpierre

Wasn't started by me

Was merely adding my opinion.

MGJohn

fatherpierre;

Premier or Conference. Yes, like it ...

Consider this: You get some non-triers in the Premier league and many who play their hearts out in the lower leagues. So it is with cars. Bavaria or Seth Afrika, they aint ALL bullet proof. They DO go wrong, sometimes big time and expensively ...... and more frequently than the hype and BS would have you believe. My evidence, the finest available ... that of my own eyes and ears. Of course they're fine cars ... no dispute but they aint ALL bullet proof!

That is the point of my contributions here. Not mine is better than your'n' sort of thing. There is no FAIR comparison. Taking the price differentials into account and there can't ever be a fair one.

In recent years, both Mercedes-Benz and BMW have realigned some of their model range to slot into or near the volume Mondeo and Vectra markets pricewise (one of their recent models is a duplicate clone of the other to my eyes - just different grills and logos - anyone else noticed that?) ... and it has worked. BMWs and to a lesser esxtent the other prestige German make are almost as frequent on local roads as Fords and Vauxhalls..... yeah, I know about extras options(lack of)and standard fits and all that. However, in so doing, is it just a little possible that corners are cut here and there so that some things may suffer?

So, fellow road users, consume the BS if you like and continue to pay well over the odds to do so if you prefer but, include me out. I take delivery of a Trophy Blue MGZS in a few days time .... the umpteenth previously BMC/BL/ARG/MG-R car I have bought and owned in over 40 years of driving. Although these new cars came with some form of AA cover etc, I have NEVER had cause to call on any recovery service in all that time for ANY of my cars. Even when later on driving those same much older cars now with huge mileages (and we have a number of these in our family) they too have never failed any of us. You may not entertain a Rover, I have excellent reasons to choose otherwise.

Neighbours with so called superior build quality machines will tell you a few horror stories about their chosen cars. That is the ones who do not go all quiet, secretive and reticent when their superior set of wheels fail them. Why do people do that ... no need to answer, I know the answer to that one.

P.S. So I may have been lucky with my cars over the years ... but there's more to it than that. Hope I've not tempted providence with what I've written above. If I believed what some of the BS vendors and consumers have written on this and other sites, my head gasket will fail whilst driving my new car off off the dealership .... so what, there's always a first time for everything ...

fatherpierre

I must add that the BMWs and rovers I owned were old models (E30, early E36), can't comment on the newer ones!

I think it's more a case of car manufacturers, particularly Ford raising their game to compete with the so called 'quality brands' than the QBs lowering theirs.

Rich and Mini

John, is your new MG the 180? If not, why not?

I'm no Rover hater. I really enjoy thrashing the 160s, 180s and 190s I have access too, and for the money, there's not many cars that offer such VFM. They're good at what they do, but, in terms of quality and finish, they're just not on par with BMW, in my opinion.

They're much more fun to drive than any of the 4cylinder BMs, and the base 6 too (320, which is actually a 2.2). Above that spec, and the BMs get expensive, and the MGs start trying to compete with cars that are much more funny. Not really a fair comparison.

Rich

Rich and Mini

Much more funny? I mean much more fun

Won't let me edit it for some reason

Rich

chrispy200+

iTrader: (2)

i can't believe that rovers are now being compared to BMW, they are in a different leauge, i own a rover and am quite happy to say that.

The later models do seem to have better build quality.

Also have to wait and see how the v8 75 compares to the m series cars, especially the supercharged one if it ever arrives, rwd and v8 forced induction, should make for fun

fatherpierre

Why can't you believe they're being compared? They're hardly a world apart.

Like for like, the base model BMWs are not much more expensive than the comparable Rover.

chrispy200+

iTrader: (2)

The original thread was the M3 E46 which to me had amazing build quality when i was in it.
I've only been in a 330 from the "lower" range which also was very nice.
Not sure on the rest of the range or prices of them comparitable to the Rover range but i'd have thought that the 25's 45's and 75's would have been cheaper, BMW's have always in my opinion been more solid

GTI

Lets be honest about it, its the badge the blue and white, people espire to it - to many it says I've made it.

GTI

Rovers are sh!te! Sorry but the british cars are cr@p, the amount of trouble dealers have with them, especially the K series 1.8.

MGJohn

Rich and Mini ....

>> John, is your new MG the 180? If not, why not? <<

No it's a ZS120+ with larger alloy option and one or two other bits and bobs.... Took a few digital shots of it yesterday straight off the transporter with all the wrappings and labels still on it .... Why not a 180? cos I purchased it for my other half .... not being sexist but a ZS180 V6 (cracking little motor) would be a bit of a waste for her and she agrees. The 120+ is an adequate compromise. Should MG-R ever put a turbo in the ZS, put me down for one.... What'll I drive in the meantime? I'll stick to one of my several aged MG Montego Turbos, or my Maestro Turbo (all great fun)or my R220 coupe Rover T16 Tomcat turbo (Boy do I not like that Bavarian mob for discontinuing the Rover T16 Turbo lump) or my Honda ... but that has four cylinders too but only two wheels ...

You also mention ... >>They're much more fun to drive than any of the 4cylinder BMs<<

Exactly in a nutshell ..... could not have put it better myself.

Safety Fast MotorinG whatever you drive ....

Rich and Mini

I've not driven the 1.8 in the ZS, only the ZR. It goes well enough in that, my mate is in the process of buying one, simply coz I had one for a night. Boy did we have some fun in that That was on the standard 16s, still handled and gripped well.

5 grand cheaper than an E46 316 compact too. A £12k ZR 120+ on 17s and a 316 £17k Compact parked next to each other, which would you choose for a blat?

I know which one I'd go for.

Rich

MGJohn

fatherpierre WROTE:

>> base model BMWs are not much more expensive <<

Good point ... but they are VERY basic .... for the extra expense.

New colleague gave me a lift in a basic 3 series recently as it was easier showing him where to go in unfamiliar area. Had I covered the steering wheel boss with my hand I could have sworn I was in a Ford or Vauxhall .... very plasticky and rattle-ly... which quite frankly surprised me as because of the hype, I too had expected more ... ride quality and comfort nowhere near a R75 but hey, it's a *** so obviously it's better .... stands to reason ..

MGJohn

Rich and Mini

>>I know which one I'd go for.<<

Yes, agreed no contest ... and with no part exchange, I negotiated a really cracking discount which made the deal an exceptional one. Amazing what you can do if you're patient, research things carefully and don't rush into things. No need to go abroad either ... all done through a local dealership. Patient.... yes, despite a nation wide dealer search (I shopped around), the spec car I wanted did not exist so had to be built from scratch. Took two months extra but worth it and I also know my car did not lay about in some storage area waiting for a buyer - straight from the final inspection at Longbridge to local dealership ... no delay.

Never paid full whack for any car ever .... and WILL never pay over the odds for one unlike some folks I could mention ...

Rich and Mini

I thought about buying a 160, because I could get a BIG discount (dad works for a dealer with a Rover franchise) something silly like 25% off. I can't remember exactly, will ask dad later. In the end, I couldn't afford to insure one, with them being a group 16 car. I had to settle for a 2001 Saxo VTS, which is slightly quicker, but much less torquey. Easier to insure though, at group 14, and quite a bit cheaper to buy second hand than a new 160, even with the discount.

I don't like being 18 sometimes.

What spec is the wife's 120+?

Rich

MGJohn

GTI WROTE:

>>Lets be honest about it, its the badge the blue and white, people espire to it - to many it says I've made it.

Rovers are sh!te! Sorry but the british cars are cr@p, the amount of trouble dealers have with them, especially the K series 1.8.<<

With sweeping statements like that, you're obviously an authority on the subject so we must bow to your superior knowledge. Honesty comes in many forms GTI ..... "made it"? MADE IT? Well maybe some will believe that hype and associated BS... it certainly appears to work and parts many an average Mug Joe Punter from his/her hard earned. ... Many, many others see things differently. Rather like ... "So you've gotta BMW ...BIG DEAL who the the hell you trying to kid?" ....

Sure dealers will have trouble with some cars .... ask any BMW dealer ... Human nature being what it is, there's much evidence to support the theory that some dealers will often blame the product when they are in fact the cause of the problem. Some owners, having gone out on a limb about their choice based on superior build quality, say NOTHING when things go wrong which they do .... There are many, many car owners who are CLUELESS about what goes on under the bonnet of their cars. These people have no option but to go along with whatever they are told and then they spread the word as "gospel". Failure to appreciate that basic concept shows a breathtakingly blinkered vision ....

... and yes my new car will have a 1.8 K series engine .... one of the reasons I chose it. Apparently these have a reputation for head gasket failure. Or, could it be that failure to maintain coolant by lazy/ignorant owners and/or poor dealer servicing (never been known to happen) leads to coolant loss leading to overheating leading to head gasket DAMAGE ... that's DAMAGE not failure. It's like saying a tyre has failed because someone has put a knife through it......

Sure things can go wrong. Believe what you will ..... I prefer the evidence of my own ears and eyes ... it's the best there is so suggest you do the same.

As someone very, very famous once said.... "There's none so blind as will not listen ...... Rodney" ....

PPPMAT

I test dove an M3 with SMG yesterday. It's a fabulous, fabulous car. Quick, excellent build quality and the paddle shift box is awesome.

I don't think that anyone who has driven one would give two hoots about the perceived image because they would be driving a class act - I was amazed by the car and quality. I would however point out that all out pace was not as 'sensational' as the delivery of my sti7 even though on paper it's quicker. That's not the point though, there is so much more to enjoy about the car.

The only personal gripe I have about BMW is their unrealistic finance costs which makes it impossible for me to justify the cost. If you can buy one outright then great, but as it stands I can run a 2 year old 911 Carrera 2 for far less money and I might just do it too.

[Edited by PPPMAT - 5/17/2003 4:18:36 PM]

MGJohn

PPPMAT

Of course most would be impressed .... they're fine cars but overpriced here in TREASURE ISLAND. Hence you're:

>> which makes it impossible for me to justify the cost. <<

However, many will justify that cost so prices continue to remain too high. Leave them unsold in the showrooms for a year or two and guess what .... sadly ... fat chance ....

Skittles

Rich.... Note sure what happened mate, I guess its just sequencing of posting, I was not refering to your post at all, it was replying to Steve Lawson's post:

"I now work for a BMW dealer and can honestly say they are no better built than the Rovers I cut my teeth on whilst doing my apprenticeship"
- i.e. as FartherP said, I was agreeing with you, but in a way one does after 6 pints!

I can understand people saying they don't like particular marques, and that they believe some are over-priced etc, as this is personal choice. HOWEVER, when people make (frankly) incorrect statements like the above, it starts to defeat the object of posting!



MGJOHN: Re your post "they're fine cars but overpriced here in TREASURE ISLAND. Hence you're:

>> which makes it impossible for me to justify the cost. <<"

I think you should re-read PPPMAt's post:
"The only personal gripe I have about BMW is their unrealistic finance costs which makes it impossible for me to justify the cost"... Note the reference to finance costs

PPPMAT: Good to hear you liked the SMG - did it take much to get used to?

I will just point out that my Rover (Tomcat) cost me more in one year than my last Bimmer. This was down to failures and largely the astronomical depreciation.

[Edited by Skittles - 5/17/2003 7:08:01 PM]

Steve Lawson

Why is my statement incorrect then Skittles?
I saw that you own a M3(may have misread so apologies if wrong)so because you do that makes the product never go wrong?
Spend a day with me mate and I think you will be reducated.
E46 M3 big end bearing recall anyone?????

Steve

fatherpierre

I suppose a way to look at a motor is to check its residuals.

BMWs, Mercs, Audis, etc. hold their money. Rovers' values plummit and are worth well below that of their rivals after 3 yrs.

Doesn't mean they're ****, just their rep from previous decades is hard to shake off.

silver-sub

M3 and Rovers are the same

MGJohn

Skittles - cover your King Pin up immediately or wind it in .. I DID read his posting so no need for you to suggest I re-read it. "unrealistic finance costs" .... in my books, finance costs MUST ALWAYS include the price of the things in the first place which are over-priced over here ... simple as that ..... otherwise why do so many punters try to source their purchases from abroad?

Additionally, fatherpierre writes "check its residuals."

For crissakes when are folks going to realise that "High Residuals" is UK Motor Trade speak for ensuring UK Mug Punters pay over the odds for the things in the first place!!

In the second place when they're disposed of in used condition by the fleets or lease operatives or what have you, higher used residuals support those same over inflated UK new prices. They will continue to do so as long as sooo very many still form queues to pay over the odds for them ..... include me out.

Leave them unsold in the showrooms and watch those prices come down new and used ....... go on I dare you ...fat chance, never happen ... too many born every minute.... It's the "Look at me I drive a wossname so MUST have made it" .... syndrome...

[Edited by MGJohn - 5/17/2003 8:22:56 PM]

fatherpierre

Well I drive a ford, John, and am happy that I paid 3k less for it than the BMW that equals it in BHP, equipment and size terms.

Reputation and image are everything when it comes to cars.

Skittles

Err, MGjohn, what am I missing here? Finance costs = the cost of servicing your borrowing - i.e. THE INTEREST on the principal you borrow.

Let me put it another way - you cannot say a mortgage on a £1 million property @ 1% has expensive finance costs compared with a £5k loan @ 25%. Now, ask any financier, they will tell you the £5k loan has expensive finance costs. I may stand corrected, I think PPPMAT's comment refers to an exscessive interest rate being charges by BMW.

I have re-read you post and sorry mate, not too sure what finance costs have to do with sourcing cars from abroad!?!

Just you leave my King Pin alone ;-)

Steve Lawson - keep off the dope! BTW, what do you do at BMW? Quality control?

Has Rover quality increased dramatically? The last Rover I had was a bit of a dog - was a 220 coupe. Its a shame because it was a stunning looking car (IMHO). By the way, ever try closing the doors with the windows wound down? Promise it will send a shiver up your spine.

Silver-sub... thanks for that insight... invaluable.