tiggers

camk,

I disagree (bet that's a surprise). Here is what I think happens. Many people who know f all about cars other than what they hear down the pub and glean from the low rent end of the media get told the BMW is the ultimate car. So when they get the chance they trade their Mundano's and Vexedtras for a BMW 3 series.

Having driven it for a while they realise that it is not actually as good as they'd been told (how could it be?), but pride stops them telling anyone else as they think they are wrong and don't know how to drive etc. Their reaction is to attempt to prove they have the ultimate car and by doing so end up behaving like ********* as the car simply doesn't do 0-60 in 3 secs, cruise at 190mph, fly to the moon, give them power over the opposite sex etc. like they thought it did.

I think this sort of thinking works all the way across the range right up to the beloved M series cars in some respects.

Oh yeah, by the way - at least some of this is tongue in cheek - just thought I'd spell it out for you!

tiggers.

tiggers

^Qwerty^

In the future try giving any car you buy/lease a decent test drive first - usually helps - know what I mean.

tiggers

chinnybloke

Newbie alert and BM driver - Sorry!

Quality thread and lots of great input/views so I thought I'd throw my bit in...

I've had a pretty wide range of cars from not very expensive and flash to fairly nice ones.

I bought a 535 auto 2 years ago after having a 2.2 Honda Accord. Excellent car and I was very, very impressed. I only paid 5k more for the BM than I paid for the Honda. Over 2 years the Honda lost me 10 grand, the BM only dropped 6,500 quid and was 40k miles of completely fault free driving. I loved it. Wasn't fastest thing on the road and I didnt expect it to be. The all round package was just loads better than any car I'd had before. Fuel was expensive compared to Honda but everything else much cheaper. Servicing 15k miles rather than 6k and similar costs.

I always wanted an M3 though, I've just always really liked them. I had planned to get a coupe but ended up getting a convertible 98/R in Jan of 2002. Fantastic car, fast, good handling but....body flex was terrible. I had a hardtop and without that on handling suffered a lot. It rattled a bit too and overall I've got to say not as nice to live with as 535. My "dream car" lasted about 5 months then I got sick of it because: 1..it attracted every t**t on the planet. I don't see why, but I used to come back and people were peering through the windows etc. It cost 22k, yes a lot but bloody hell, not that special! 2...I regretted convertible because handling suffers and worries of some idiot slashing roof.

Image wise, everyone thinks I'm a tosser in it? So what. I wanted it so I bought it. Do I really care and I'd never buy a car to look or think I'll have a good image in it. I'd buy because I want. Crappy little story but my dad's "best mate" hated the fact my dad used to have a Jag. So all the time it was Jag drivers think they own the road, blah blah blah blah. And my dad used to do reverse, just because he's got a crap car he thinks he doesn't have to indicate etc, etc, etc. I don't care what people drive there is an equal amount of idiots inwhatever manufactuer it is.

So...I sold the M3 and bought an Audi 1.9Tdi estate because I was disappointed overall with my dream car. Then about 2 months ago I wanted to get something else. I looked at Forester Turbos and its a great car, looked at an S class merc, LS 400, new M3 and another 5 series. After lots of drives I went for M5. Big t*sser in a BM? Don't really care to be honest. Its a nice car. No I don't think its the fastest thing on the road, I don't pull out in front of everyone, I let people out at junctions....each to their own.

On wages and amount spent on cars...I have a mate on over 40k, bought an Impreza for 11kish and he loves it. No way would he spend 40 grand on a car.


Thats enough for first post I reckon...

Chinnybloke

tiggers

chinnybloke,

A well reasoned, well explained and realistic post from an M5 owner - thank you!!

As I have said on here several times - not all BMW drivers are tw@ts, but I would say that a greater percentage than those in many other types of vehicle are.

I'm glad you enjoy your cars (let's face we all do as otherwise why would be on this forum) and even more impressed that you are realistic about your BMW's - fair play to you.

tiggers.

MR2 Rob

Camk

Quite easy unfortunately - my friend who was looking for the M3 wanted a nice car for herself to drive in - good looking, all the toys, good build quality. I suggested Audi - she said, oh no I couldnt drive one of those, it has to be a BMW. Good to see she gave the excellent Audi marque a chance.

I know soooo many people who actively seek BM's for image alone. Someone my dad knew bought an old 5 series, paid too much for it second hand in the first place from a dealer, had big trouble, it cost her hundreds in servicing and broken bits. Anyway she spent nearly a quarter of its value over the time she had on it fixing it. This could happen to any car admittedly, but she steadfastly defended it because in her words...

'I drive a BMW, my car is better than yours".

As I have said 3 times before I genuinely believe they are very good cars indeed. The Rover 75 got an absolutely great review I read once claiming it could rival BM for its quality, but nobody buys it because of its image - they darent suggest it really is as good as they found it to be.

Most people on car appreciation sites like this are, thankfully, not taken in by "what everyone else drives should be what I drive" reasoning but a hell of a lot of people in this country are.

BMW's are fine machines - the only thing that I have against them is the amount of people with tunnel vision who buy them purely for label then look down their noses at you. If you test drove it against other considerations and found it the best for you then hats off to you, and this doesnt apply to you.

This is just my experiences, no offence is meant to anyone. It does seem that a lot of people feel the same.

MR2 Rob

Oh yeah - forgot to mention that my next door neighbours M3 bought new has been back to BMW 4 times because the weight of the doors is causing its doors to bend down off the hinges and doesnt shut properly.

I'm sure this is quite a rare occurrence but its a bit of a blemish on the 'Ultimate driving machine' adverts isn't it?

The same neighbours have just traded a VW cabriolet (their 3rd VW) and previous Toyota for.......a BMW.

Skittles

Tiggers, I had the same dilema re. F355 and a new M3.

I'm sorry to say that if you do even some digging on the F355 you will see why me and lots of other people would buy an M3, or something similar.

Tell me, do you know the price of the annual servicing?
What about maintenance? Tyres? Fuel?

It comes up to well North of £10k per annum.

Add to that of anything goes wrong, you are talking about £10-£15k per annum, before fuel etc etc.

Have you ever seen the interior?

I am quite surprised you think all/most people buy M cars based on image. Surely there are other cars that have much more badge snobbery than plain old BMW - 2nd hand Porka, 2nd hand Ferrari. I not sure anyone for a moment on this planet would claim they would buy a BMW, rather than a Ferrari/Porka based on image or advertising!!! Think about it!

Perhaps people actually buy M3s as they offer pretty much the best all round package, for £40k, today at least...

Do you not think Subaru do the same (like all other manufacturers) selling their cars on the back of the rally heritage? Do you think they spend millions for a laugh? DO you think their shareholders would allow that?

They do it because it sells cars!



MR2Rob: Do you possibly think that that may be becuase they saw it was an isolated fault? Or is it just that they watch too many ads? I have read on this BBS of many Scoob drivers having recurring (but isolated) faults with their cars... would you expect all of them to never buy a Scoob again? If they do, it it because they are brainwashed?




[Edited by Skittles - 5/14/2003 12:10:51 AM]

tiggers

Skittles,

Yes, yes, yes, no and no!!!

Seriously though I don't just think people buy BMW's including our much loved M3 base on image - I KNOW they do.

Yes I do think that quite a few of them think they're getting a better car than a Porsche/Ferrari and those that don't see the Porsches etc. being in a different league - they can relate an M3 back to a 316 so its still a sensible car and the guy in the pub told them it was faster than any Porsche or Ferrari anyway.

If you seriously don't think that there are plenty of people out there that think like this think again!

tiggers.

MR2 Rob

Yeah I realise what you say about servicing etc. and obviously that what puts a lot of people off, so as practical as a 40K car gets, the BM has it there, but I was just trying to show the value comparison that you can get one of the worlds best supercars for the same money.

However - depreciation will kill an M3 in about 10 years. An F355 will always be a supercar classic with more demand. How much are G reg M3's worth now after a normal life? I don't know but probably about 6k or less?

I dont think many car nuts on here are dumb, I just think that a lot of people in the general public are taken in by what they say on the adverts 'ultimate driving machine'. Its a hell of an arrogant thing to put on TV. Like I say If you question it but still end up with a BM then fair play, you have done the work and it will hopefully fulfill all you ask of it.

Certainly all the people I know with cars bought through image alone are just sheep. And I seem to know a lot of people like them. It might be the age bracket that everyone I know is 30 or below so image is high.
Thats one of the reasons I bought my MR2 - I wanted to have a good looking 2 seater sportscar car and only paid 5K for it. There are many other reasons though so it was not just image based. I was the lowest paid person at work on my year out from uni with the quickest car(excluding the directors merc). That confused quite a few people.

Once again, I am not knocking BMW's just going back to the original post on how they managed to brainwash a lot of people who buy without trying anything else because of its marketing.

MR2 Rob

as regards to my neighbours:

1 'Ultimate driving machine' £40K+ - poor build quality - Back to dealer (accepted this is probably an uncommon problem)

3 Volkswagen Golf GTi Cabs 'If everything in life was as reliable...' - no major probs with any

1 Toyota MR2 (nothing related to my ownership of an MR2) which he traded in for the M3 - quote "I never wanted to sell that car anyway but my wife thought we should get a BMW next"

If the doors on a car which I paid £40K for started to fall off then I would drive my 'ultimate driving machine' ultimately through the showroom window!!!

But yes, I'm sure it is quite a rare occurrence. However, I would never buy another same make car if that happened to me.

I'm anti-brainwashing the public, not anti-BMW. If they were as 'ultimate' as they said then I wouldn't have a problem.

Subaru sold the Imprezza on the back of massive Rally success. (Proven)
BMW built their reputation by telling the public that their car was better than everyone elses. (not proven)

camk

Sorry guys we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do not see anything in any of the 'examples' you gave as being unusually attributable to BMW drivers The evidence offered is just anecdotal. The same could be said for anyone who bought any car, I see it on here all the time, Subaru blow's an engine and owner says its a great car. We see people spending thousands on mod's on their scoobs to get it better yet they believe its still the original and best. Thats human nature, most people won't say what they have bought is a mistake, usually simply because until you live with an alternative for a similar time period the comparison is not valid.
I see Bob going on on another thread about his MR2, I see Mycroft extolling the virtues of the Soarer and Tigger you go on about the Subaru. What difference is this to the M3 guy who says its a great car , in fact one of the best ? I've no issue with any of these opinions, but effectively you are both saying that if someone with a BMW has the same opinion about their car its not valid as you two don't agree.

Cheers
Camk

NACRO

You have to admit though that there is a perception of BMW drivers as being aggressive drivers and generally rude people. I am not saying this is true, after all I used to drive one myself and I'm perfect.

Most BMW drivers will admit that it is hard to get people to let them out of junctions etc. So IMHO the M3 is a great car let down by poor image.

chinnybloke: great post and great choice of car, I'll be joining you on the dark side when the later ones drop another 3-5 grand or so.

camk

Sorry I don't have that perception, the only place I've seen or heard it is here. I don't see how you can have the opinion since its just a make of car. Its like saying all black cars are driven by tossers. How can this be, since cars are bought relatively randomly across the board by a random population based on what they like and can afford.
Its what you personally value that s important. After re-reading Bob's last comment I was amazed at the thought of him staring out over the car park thinking hey I'm the youngest here and drive the fastest car. That in itself is fine but the mistake he probably makes is that he assumes all the people in his office think like that. A lot of people are probably happy to have a newer car. Its no less valid than wanting a faster one. Not being a car nerd does not make you a tosser, I'm sure a few folks out there would say the opposite is true.
Saying that Subaru sold their car on Rally Success and its a proven fact is not true, there is probably less resemblance between the original Rally car than a road going Subaru than there is between BMW and the ultimate driving machine Now that really is brainwashing.....or just good marketing.

[Edited by camk - 5/14/2003 9:15:43 AM]

BT52b

Stereotypical examples of any car owner always exist, otherwise the stereotype wouldn't exist.

But just as not all Subaru owners wear a baseball cap backwards despite the image, not all M3 drivers are arrogant and blinkered.

It's a genuine alternative to a 911, yet I'd suggest that the sterotype depicted for the M3 driver would rather have a 911 given the chance, for exactly the same reasons he would rather have an M3 over a Scoob.

Mark

NACRO

Guys I think you've missed the point

It is true to say that BMW drivers in England have a certain reputation (just as Subaru drivers have)

Cam you may not see it that way and I have to admit I don't either but it is a fact that BMW drivers have a hard time getting courteous treatment from other road users. I think most BMW drivers will have experienced that, I know I did.

Still the M3 is a great car for the cash, just not as good as an M5.

tiggers

camk,

Once again I think you've missed the point. Subaru DID sell the Impreza on the back of rally success. This does not mean the road going Impreza is the same as the rally car or anything like it, but the company's success in the WRC particularly with one Colin McRae made people want to drive a Subaru - its as simple as that.

As for you saying the BMW is closer to being an 'ultimate driving machine' than the Impreza is to the rally car I think you're deluded. The road going Impreza's make a pretty good starting point for a rally car more so than most other road cars, but lets not get into that one as I fear once again we won't agree.

I am also sorry to report that in my experiences BMW drivers do deserve at least some of the reputation they have - to say the only place you've heard this sort of thing is on this board is very surprising - maybe you should interact with people a little more - I think other people's repsonses on this thread lead me to believe I am not alone in my experiences with this.

Finally it is interesting to note that you feel I am staunchly defending the Impreza when I have never said that - I simply think an STI is better value for money than an M3 when judged against the criteria I want in a car (something I have mentioned many times on this thread - please try to get this point).

The funny thing is that after 5 years of Scooby ownership I am currently driving something different - my wife still has a Scooby so I am not completely outside the fold, but equally I am not oblivious to the charms of other cars, just not the (IN MY OPINION)overpriced BMW 'ultimate driving machines' ;-)

tiggers.

BT52b

I'd agree that generally BMW drivers do have a bad image and are less likely to get treated well on the road, but the same is true for Porsche drivers.

I also find that driving the Scoob I get a lot less respect than driving the Lotus, somehow the Lotus seems to either look more scary and intimidating than it really is or generate enthusiasm.

The Subaru seems to incite people to want to race at traffic lights etc. as if they are expecting me to be nutcase.

But the Smart gets absolutely ZERO respect. People simply will NOT pull over on motorways, it's as if I'm invisible. Something to do with trying to preserve dignity they feel will be lost is they suffer the embarrassment of being overtaken by a 4 wheeled egg...

Mark

camk

Tigger,
The STi I owned only bore a cosmetic similarity to the Rally Car driven by Colin McCrae. Gearbox,engine,suspension and brakes are all different. What else needs to change for it to be not similar ? If you take your argument then effectively Ferrari kit cars with Ford engines are a good start at owning a Ferarri. Which is clearly not the case. Well not for me anyway. I'd rather have a Smart car

MR2 Rob

People keep missing the point I'm trying to make so I will make it straight foward. In my opinion:

1/ BMW's are good cars
2/ BMW's advertising is very arrogant
3/ If you have test driven a BMW against its competition and still opted for the BMW then thats fine as you gave the others a chance
4/ If you went and bought a BMW without making your own mind up by driving other cars of similar status then I personally think that you could well be the victim of brainwashing tactics.
5/ I have known so many people who look down their nose at you because they drive a BMW and I think these people apply to point number 4 and not 3.

I value anyone's opinion on this site as they all have reasons for liking what they have. Sure we all love and defend our own cars, BMW drivers shouldn't be any different either. It's not people on this site I'm grumbling at - you got it right in my opinion, its the general public who don't have a clue about cars and buy because of a label.

NACRO

Regarding the SMART car

I saw something rather amusing a few weeks ago on some country roads. I came up rather quickly behind a Audi A4 1.8T following a SMART and noticed that rather than being able to overtake the Audi driver was having diffiulty keeping up with the SMART. The Audi was visibly understeering and braking mid bend (don't think he was left foot braking) and just couldn't keep pace with the SMART on the corners. By the time he got to the straights he just didn't have enough space or power to overtake. To be honest I doubt if I could have gotten past safely the way the Audi was driving.

Anyway the SMART pulled into the pub I was visiting for lunch so I parked next to him and commented on his excellent driving. The SMART was a Brabus job and it turned out the fellow driving it was an instructor from Knockhill of all places. He said he used the SMART for laughs at the weekend and enjoyed humbling theoretically faster cars. Of course I told him I would have had no problems in my car but he reckons that he outran an STi going down Cheddar Gorge (very steep and twisty) a few weeks before. I have to say I viewed his claim with scepticism but he could definately hustle his egg box on wheels around the bendy bits.

1-0 to the SMART car!

MR2 Rob

Camk - the only reason I said about my car and the people at work was just that you dont have to buy a new car and spend thousands on it to make other people surprised. Because I weighed up what I could afford, tried some other cars, did a bit of research and got the MR2 a lot of people thought I was doing a second job on the side. It wasnt meant to make me sound arrogant - I didnt mean it to sound like that, after all their cars were mostly newer and still worth a bit more than mine.

I was surprised that out of the 30 people working there, I had around 40% come up to me and ask how I could afford a relatively fast car like that at my age, to which I pointed out the fact that insurance isnt that bad, and the car cost far less than they imagined. So people do have these pre-concieved images which is a shame. It was a bit of a tenuous link between my situation and people buying a certain make because of a pre-concieved reputation.

As for the BMW attitude debait, I believe that the majority of BM drivers are fine, but there always seems to be more BM drivers on the roads who put a bad name to the marque than people in other cars. Maybe you are right that I only notice BM drivers foing this, thats probabably because I have noticed this for a number of years now.
Its nothing to do with this site, I and my friends have been aware of an attitude for years now, ask my old man and he would say the same. Simple test to prove this image problem, go to www.clubgti.com and post a general thread asking what people think of BM drivers.

[Edited by MR2 Rob - 5/14/2003 10:34:05 AM]

tiggers

camk,

I am sorry that I appear to lost any command of the English language I might have had. This must be the case as you seem unable to understand my posts and of course you are not in anyway reading them in a blinkered manner are you? ;-)

OK let's try one more time to get you to understand what I am saying.

I AM NOT SAYING THE ROAD GOING IMPREZA THAT YOU AND I BUY FOR USE ON THE PUBLIC ROAD IS REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THE WORLD RALLY CAR!!

Got that now! I did say that in my previous post - I've re-read it and I definitely said it!!!!

What I am saying is that:-

a) Subaru sold the Impreza on the back of their success in the WRC. The cars they sold were not in any way simialr to the rally cars, but the success of the company in that field made people want to buy them.

b) The road going Impreza id a good starting point for a Group N rally car. I have a good friend who competes in various rallies and has done for many years including the RAC/Network Q (or whatever it is called now) on a couple of occasions. He runs his own garage and builds/maintains his own rally cars. In 30 years of preparing rally cars he says that the Impreza is the best 'out of the box' starting point for a rally car that he's come across.

Now I've read this several times and it makes sense so I'd like you to do the same before you start typing again - thanks awfully old chap ;-)

tiggers.

Skittles

MR2Rob: sounds to me like you more than many others on this board buys a car for the image! You want it to look like an exoensive car when it isn't!

Additionally, do you find "the car in front is a Toyota" a little arrogant? I know I did, but I don't go round claiming all Toyota drivers got their cars becuase they think they will be in front.

As for the image issue? I do agree the only real place it seems to crop up is here and Clarkson! I have had very few difficulties pulling out of junctions etc, and I don't put it down to someone driiving alosn saying "its a BMW, so I won't let him go"... I just don't think most of the population are that sad!

Skittles

Tiggers, well if he said it is true, it must be! Unquestionably.

NACRO

Interesting you've never noticed a problem with other drivers

While I was in a 4 month unemployed period I needed a set of wheels pronto and bought an E30 325. I immedietly noticed other drivers not letting me pull out, giving me abuse for no reason and generally treating me like a scumbag. My driving didn't change at all from when I had the company Mundano just other peoples reaction to me. Same now in the Impreza every spotty herbert in a max pow'd car wants to race me off at the lights. I really do think a lot of people on the roads think like that. Maybe it's just my driving antagonising them but I don't think so as I'm fairly curteous to everyone whatever they are driving, even idiotic school run mum's in Toyota Amazons.

Skittles

I don't really know if other BM drivers get abuse - if they did, then I would expect them to stop buying the cars, or off-load them pronto. I know I would.

My experiences of M3 ownership have been really very positive.

On oaccasions, I have had people giving the thumbs up in traffic jams, on three occasions have had coppers saying "nice motor", and one asking me to gun the engine (in neutral of course) to hear it at high revs. Had the "rude boys"/max power lot pay compliments too. When I stop for fuel, many times someone comes up & asks questions etc. I think its great!

I have a friend who has recently purchased an M3, and his experiences reflect this. I don't know if its the same case in a 318?

People really are not as mean as you all seem to be making out. I still doubt most of the population bases their decision on letting someone out of a junction based on their car! Life's just too short!

I have been called a "wan*er" once in a traffic jam, but that was in my Rover...

I just can never get past Toyotas though... they always seem to be in front?

[Edited by Skittles - 5/14/2003 11:20:50 AM]

MR2 Rob

Yeah - ONE the reasons I bought my Toyota MR2 was image as its a good looking sportscar and people seem to like it who I know. The other FAR more important reasons were:

I wanted a sportscar whilst I was still young

It has all the right bits in the right places

It has great handling

Its pretty quick for a normally aspirated car

Its very well built

It holds its value

It gave me a better driving experience than the other cars I tried

It seems more expensive than it is (which is always nice - more attention for less money).

I smile everytime I see and get in it.

I repeat once again, its the general public who dont go through other cars and test them first before buying their BM that I have a problem with. They might find there are other better cars for them but they will never know because they dont test. I didn't buy my car simply because the Toyota brand is meant to be reliable, that would be a naive thing to do, and I certainly didnt get taken in by the adverts.

As for the Totota advert 'the car infront is a Toyota' (which I thought was crap)
Its not saying "this is the best driving machine around" The word Ultimate means you cant get any better = Bullsh#t - you can always improve, and there are better driving machines.....a Porsche 911 maybe?

The car infront might have implied: 'we sell lots of cars' (and therefore if we sell lots of cars then we might make a decent product) don't you think?

Also 'the car infront' may imply its ahead of you, but it doesnt say 'the car infront is ahead of everything else on the road'.

In any case its not using a phrase which says you cant beat this car is it?

Did you try the post on Club GTi website?

Rob

[Edited by MR2 Rob - 5/14/2003 11:24:45 AM]

tiggers

MR2Rob,

Excellent post - well said and I hope you continue to enjoy your MR2 for what it is - the right car for you!

Regards,

tiggers.

MR2 Rob

Thanks

Skittles

Well the same way the "ultimate driving machine" is a hyperbole, I would say that "the car in front..." also is. Do you see the point?

Do you think people rushed out and purchased Toyotas becuase they thought they could never be overtaken? Along the same lines, do you think all BMW drivers went out thinking their car was the best driving machine in the world? I think not.

Am I missing something here or is one of your issues that you seem to think the world is stupid? Why not give people some credit.

There are a bunch of Rover drivers out there who are wedded to the brand and would never buy anything else. So what? Its their choice? Why criticise people for not making the same informed decision as you?

As for the MR2 choice - if you really did want a car that handles well, why did you not go for a MK1. They are fantastic cars, and look great. The MK2 is not in the same league. Or did you just want people to think you had more cash than you have? Seems to me thats what you are saying. If so, fine. I hope people don't sit down and say, he is stupid, should have done X or Y. Must have been an uninformed choice... blah blah blah

PS - excellent post. I think you are great. Will you higlight my hair?




[Edited by Skittles - 5/14/2003 12:06:14 PM]

[Edited by Skittles - 5/14/2003 12:12:03 PM]