M3 - How have BMW done this?
11 May 2003, 12:28 AM
#91
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Jeez! John, calm down mate, or you'll have a heart attack! 
You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about opinions on Rover.
I actually own one of Rover's finest ( can you guess what? ) and a Saxo VTS as a daily runner. I'm only 18, but my dad worked for Rover for about 10 years ( the franchise he works for now still has a Rover dealer ) so I've grown up around them. They're not bad cars, but they're not exactly great either. The new breed of the ZR, ZS and ZT aren't bad at all. The 160 goes well, handles ok, and looks the business if you like that kind of thing. The 180 goes even better, handles great and also looks the business. The 190 goes alright, handles alright and looks nice. They're priced well too, so that combined with the fact they're good cars is probably why we see so many on the roads today. Let's hope they can save the Rover group.
They don't compare to BMWs really, BUT you wouldn't expect them to, as they cost much less than the equivalent BMW of similar performance. ( Although an E46 318 driven well would still show them how it's done on the twisties ).
Rich
PS - the funny thing is, I detested BMWs before I started work for them...
You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about opinions on Rover.
I actually own one of Rover's finest ( can you guess what?
) and a Saxo VTS as a daily runner. I'm only 18, but my dad worked for Rover for about 10 years ( the franchise he works for now still has a Rover dealer ) so I've grown up around them. They're not bad cars, but they're not exactly great either. The new breed of the ZR, ZS and ZT aren't bad at all. The 160 goes well, handles ok, and looks the business if you like that kind of thing. The 180 goes even better, handles great and also looks the business. The 190 goes alright, handles alright and looks nice. They're priced well too, so that combined with the fact they're good cars is probably why we see so many on the roads today. Let's hope they can save the Rover group. They don't compare to BMWs really, BUT you wouldn't expect them to, as they cost much less than the equivalent BMW of similar performance. ( Although an E46 318 driven well would still show them how it's done on the twisties
).Rich
PS - the funny thing is, I detested BMWs before I started work for them...
11 May 2003, 09:57 AM
#93
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Davy, thanks again, you never fail to amuse! Combining the advice to 'grow up' with comments about Halfords and rice... good work, son!
The 'how you go fast' thing only works if your car is either stylish or stealthy. Yours is neither, which is why you make me laugh. As it happens, my car is even less stylish and stealthy than yours - indeed, it's probably not even faster. But I don't have that quote under my name
The 'how you go fast' thing only works if your car is either stylish or stealthy. Yours is neither, which is why you make me laugh. As it happens, my car is even less stylish and stealthy than yours - indeed, it's probably not even faster. But I don't have that quote under my name
11 May 2003, 10:01 AM
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Myshaft,
I never cease to be amazed at the situations that you manage to mention the Toyota Snoarer in, you must be on commission. BTW how would you know if you had a recall since your car was not imported into the UK. Don't tell me, you trawl the US websites. A night out with you must be a hoot.
I never cease to be amazed at the situations that you manage to mention the Toyota Snoarer in, you must be on commission. BTW how would you know if you had a recall since your car was not imported into the UK. Don't tell me, you trawl the US websites. A night out with you must be a hoot.
11 May 2003, 11:04 AM
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tiggers, any thread about BMWs is likely to get a few responses, simply because of the strength of feeling most people have about the marque's image, be it good or bad.
I would rather stick my **** in a food mixer than drive a BMW, despite the fact that the M3 is patently a superior car to my own in almost every way. More than any other marque, a BMW would 'say' absolutely the wrong things about me. I am happy to admit that this makes me a sad, image-conscious individual, but I suspect it is the case for quite a few people. I have a great deal of respect for those individuals who can see past the stereotype and who are able to buy such a car for the driving experience alone. They are braver than I am, for sure.
Davyboy, your attempt to ape the bootiful Norfolk dialect sounds more like an unfinished German quote, like... "Nar ich treibe ein häßliches Auto" And, yes that could apply to either of us
P.S. Sorry, you have done nothing to really deserve me having a go. It's Sunday and I'm bored. Please forgive me.
I would rather stick my **** in a food mixer than drive a BMW, despite the fact that the M3 is patently a superior car to my own in almost every way. More than any other marque, a BMW would 'say' absolutely the wrong things about me. I am happy to admit that this makes me a sad, image-conscious individual, but I suspect it is the case for quite a few people. I have a great deal of respect for those individuals who can see past the stereotype and who are able to buy such a car for the driving experience alone. They are braver than I am, for sure.
Davyboy, your attempt to ape the bootiful Norfolk dialect sounds more like an unfinished German quote, like... "Nar ich treibe ein häßliches Auto" And, yes that could apply to either of us
P.S. Sorry, you have done nothing to really deserve me having a go. It's Sunday and I'm bored. Please forgive me.
11 May 2003, 12:32 PM
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Ritchie 1 WROTE quoting Rich and Mini:
>> Headgasket failure on new BMWs are NOT common, I should know, I supply the parts for them... <<
Not common means that they do occur .... nuff said. I know that they are rather more frequent than most realise. ...
Please note above - particularly for the benefit of Colonel Mullet who appears to have some sense of humour ...
I wrote:
>> two newish BMWs on the hard shoulder with bonnets up, steaming nicely ... head gaskets or ... <<
So Colonel, please note my inclusion of the word OR .... Passing at motorway speeds, no way could I know the actual causes. Stone through the rad, failed coolant hose, you name it. Head gaskets can fail on ANY car following loss of coolant due to overheating as a result of that coolant loss. Not unkown for a distracted or even negligent spannerman at the best dealerships to fail to tighten the securing clip when fitting a hose. Here again I speak from experience. Agreed, anything can cause a steamy failure on any car.
Ritchie and Mini also WROTE:
>> PS - BMW is generally a superior product. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way John. Not many cars drive like BMWs do.
PPS - and you saw some pratt stuff a 3 series? Big deal, they don't know how to handle RWD and the wet, obviously. <<
Re PS: No need to be sorry - Where did a ever say they're NOT good cars ..... It's all the bullet proof superior build quality bullshine (at UK car buyers expense) I strongly object to. Consume all that bullshine if you so desire. That's your choice, I chose not to consume .....
A quick ww-web search will produce discontented owners for just about ANY new car produced, including examples of the highly regarded BMW. Some of the experiences of BMW owners make the sometimes fragile Subaru ownership look like a doddle.
Re your PPS ... and Rear Wheel Drive cars. Not so obvious. The most popular open 2 seater with UK car buyers for the past few years is a mid-engined rear wheel drive car. In the hands of those less experienced, it has been known to behave in a pendulous way like those teutonic RWD marques I mentioned previously. That RWD two seater? ... The MGF ... and now the MGTF. Fact is, any car can bite the careless or inexperienced. Come to think about it, experienced drivers too!!
Finally, I mentioned my dislike earlier of the way so many of our UK media almost incessantly refer to MG-Rover as the "Loss making Midlands car manufacturer". Always with a negative slant. (That disappointment when reporting MG-Rs workers voting not to take industrial action was acute). Over the years and to this present day, many other manufacturers are or have been in deep financial dodah! (BMW and Auto Union (now AUDI) in the 1970s IIRC and many others since). Why do they never refer to any of them as "Loss making"? You need diagrams? I don't ... I hate them for that ...
>> Headgasket failure on new BMWs are NOT common, I should know, I supply the parts for them... <<
Not common means that they do occur .... nuff said. I know that they are rather more frequent than most realise. ...
Please note above - particularly for the benefit of Colonel Mullet who appears to have some sense of humour ...
I wrote:
>> two newish BMWs on the hard shoulder with bonnets up, steaming nicely ... head gaskets or ... <<
So Colonel, please note my inclusion of the word OR .... Passing at motorway speeds, no way could I know the actual causes. Stone through the rad, failed coolant hose, you name it. Head gaskets can fail on ANY car following loss of coolant due to overheating as a result of that coolant loss. Not unkown for a distracted or even negligent spannerman at the best dealerships to fail to tighten the securing clip when fitting a hose. Here again I speak from experience. Agreed, anything can cause a steamy failure on any car.
Ritchie and Mini also WROTE:
>> PS - BMW is generally a superior product. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way John. Not many cars drive like BMWs do.
PPS - and you saw some pratt stuff a 3 series? Big deal, they don't know how to handle RWD and the wet, obviously. <<
Re PS: No need to be sorry - Where did a ever say they're NOT good cars ..... It's all the bullet proof superior build quality bullshine (at UK car buyers expense) I strongly object to. Consume all that bullshine if you so desire. That's your choice, I chose not to consume .....
A quick ww-web search will produce discontented owners for just about ANY new car produced, including examples of the highly regarded BMW. Some of the experiences of BMW owners make the sometimes fragile Subaru ownership look like a doddle.
Re your PPS ... and Rear Wheel Drive cars. Not so obvious. The most popular open 2 seater with UK car buyers for the past few years is a mid-engined rear wheel drive car. In the hands of those less experienced, it has been known to behave in a pendulous way like those teutonic RWD marques I mentioned previously. That RWD two seater? ... The MGF ... and now the MGTF. Fact is, any car can bite the careless or inexperienced. Come to think about it, experienced drivers too!!
Finally, I mentioned my dislike earlier of the way so many of our UK media almost incessantly refer to MG-Rover as the "Loss making Midlands car manufacturer". Always with a negative slant. (That disappointment when reporting MG-Rs workers voting not to take industrial action was acute). Over the years and to this present day, many other manufacturers are or have been in deep financial dodah! (BMW and Auto Union (now AUDI) in the 1970s IIRC and many others since). Why do they never refer to any of them as "Loss making"? You need diagrams? I don't ... I hate them for that ...
MGJohn, when you use a quote to disagree or argue against a point then at least have the manners to
A) include ONLY the names of the ppl that said it - I only mentioned the "M-Way incident" and didnt say ANYTHING else. You have quoted me as mentioning RWD handling in the wet, how common or uncommon headgasket failure is on the E46 and how superior the build quality is on BMW's amongst other things.
I didnt say ANYTHING MORE than suggesting you couldnt have been in a position as to why those cars were on the hard shoulder so please dont quote me with things I never said......
and
B) At least have the decency to spell the name of the person you are quoting correctly
[edit] Ah sod it, I cant get the board to put lines within that quote so it all appears as one big block
[/edit][Edited by Richie1 - 5/11/2003 12:34:40 PM]
12 May 2003, 01:47 AM
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its a sad state of affairs in this country that people are taken in by the rubbish that we are told. Ultimate driving machine? My @rse. Good yeah, but thats like turning round and saying 'i am the most intelligent person in the world'. If someone said that to you, my response would end in off. Loads of people are total suckers when it comes to cars.
Unfortunately its like a fashion label now.
Unfortunately its like a fashion label now.
12 May 2003, 01:51 AM
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###
I have never had any abuse for owning a BMW.
###
see below
###
I have seen road rage incidents aimed at me - but aI also saw just as many as when I drove a Rover, or my Vauxhall.
###
Then perhaps you were a 'BMW DRIVER' even when driving those cars... hahaha
Some people can't see the light even whilst being beaten about the head with a Maglite...
I have never had any abuse for owning a BMW.
###
see below
###
I have seen road rage incidents aimed at me - but aI also saw just as many as when I drove a Rover, or my Vauxhall.
###
Then perhaps you were a 'BMW DRIVER' even when driving those cars... hahaha
Some people can't see the light even whilst being beaten about the head with a Maglite...
12 May 2003, 02:17 AM
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Skittles
No mate thats cool, wasn't getting defensive, just didnt want you to think that its my ultimate car or anything. I'm loving it at the moment though.
No more BM comments from me, I just think that if they dropped their prices by £10K then everyone would be singing their praises because they are a really good car, just too pricey in my opinion for what they get.
End of the day - if you like it then thats all that matters.
Cheers
No mate thats cool, wasn't getting defensive, just didnt want you to think that its my ultimate car or anything. I'm loving it at the moment though.
No more BM comments from me, I just think that if they dropped their prices by £10K then everyone would be singing their praises because they are a really good car, just too pricey in my opinion for what they get.
End of the day - if you like it then thats all that matters.
Cheers
12 May 2003, 06:36 AM
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Time for my input again, I see a lot of envy in this thread, it's really rather sad.
When a lot of you guys can afford 40k to buy a car, then I will come and listen to the "image problem" issues you have with the car, and the fact you dont think its worth 40k.
You just sound like jelous little school kids.
You can't afford it, fair enough........lets move on.
When a lot of you guys can afford 40k to buy a car, then I will come and listen to the "image problem" issues you have with the car, and the fact you dont think its worth 40k.
You just sound like jelous little school kids.
You can't afford it, fair enough........lets move on.
12 May 2003, 08:53 AM
#108
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Isn't it funny how the people on here who have defended the BMW marque have so far:-
- admitted to parking across two spaces
- told everyone how in a straight line it is much faster than x,y or z
- given a good reason for owning an M3 as 'it will pull the birds'
- brought money in to the argument
All traits of the typical BMW driver - you're reinforcing your own stereotype - keep going.
I'm not going to get embroiled in the money argument, but all I will say is you don't need to have £45K to spend to realise how it may be better spent. It's not envy - it's common sense!
Regards,
tiggers.
- admitted to parking across two spaces
- told everyone how in a straight line it is much faster than x,y or z
- given a good reason for owning an M3 as 'it will pull the birds'
- brought money in to the argument
All traits of the typical BMW driver - you're reinforcing your own stereotype - keep going.
I'm not going to get embroiled in the money argument, but all I will say is you don't need to have £45K to spend to realise how it may be better spent. It's not envy - it's common sense!
Regards,
tiggers.
12 May 2003, 09:05 AM
#109
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Tiggers, just re-read one of your previous posts, and my own experience backs up what your mechanic friend told you:
1st company car: older style 1.4 Honda Civic. 180,000miles in 3 yrs and not 1 single fault - not even a blown bulb.
various others followed, with a few little problems.
last company car before I changed jobs: BMW 3series. 146,000miles in just over 2yrs and 2 breakdowns, several electrical problems and numerous 'quality' issues.
Sure it's isolated, and the BMW was a great mile mucher, but certainly not great for reliability
1st company car: older style 1.4 Honda Civic. 180,000miles in 3 yrs and not 1 single fault - not even a blown bulb.
various others followed, with a few little problems.
last company car before I changed jobs: BMW 3series. 146,000miles in just over 2yrs and 2 breakdowns, several electrical problems and numerous 'quality' issues.
Sure it's isolated, and the BMW was a great mile mucher, but certainly not great for reliability
12 May 2003, 09:07 AM
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40K really isn't a lot for a car so I can't see your point about envy. Now if we were talking over 60K that starts to be a different matter. Lots of people have access to 40K for a car if they want one these days after all we are reckoned to spend a yrs salary on a car. Add to that the amount of equity sloshing around in peoples houses and a 40K car isn't really that expensive.
The M3 DOES have an image problem, however if I wanted one the bad image wouldn't put me off buying one. Fact is I don't want one, I want an M5 and as soon as the prices drop some more (when the new M5 comes out) I'll be buying one.
The M3 DOES have an image problem, however if I wanted one the bad image wouldn't put me off buying one. Fact is I don't want one, I want an M5 and as soon as the prices drop some more (when the new M5 comes out) I'll be buying one.
12 May 2003, 09:16 AM
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While we are talking about image
I would rather have the image of a typical M3 owner, than a typical classic scoob owner.
Have you considered how bad the image of the classic is now?
I would rather have the image of a typical M3 owner, than a typical classic scoob owner.
Have you considered how bad the image of the classic is now?
12 May 2003, 09:17 AM
#112
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Just a thought, how many people do you think earn 40k on scoobynet?
I would imagine not that many...................
Those that do probably don't own Scoobs anymore.
I would imagine not that many...................
Those that do probably don't own Scoobs anymore.
12 May 2003, 09:20 AM
#113
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davyboy,
Don't worry as judging by your posts you're well on the way to the image you aspire to ;-)
tiggers.
Don't worry as judging by your posts you're well on the way to the image you aspire to ;-)
tiggers.
12 May 2003, 09:36 AM
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Bit strange. I've been looking at getting an M3 recently largely because at 40k it is such a bargain.
A 911 is more like 60k and the M3 has the benefit of being a proper 4 seater with a boot as well as being just as fast.
It's the laws of diminishing returns though isn't it. Zonda looks very expensive for the extra you get over a Lambo, the Lambo looks expensive next to a Modena, the Modena looks expensive next to a 911, the 911 looks expensive next to an M3, an M3 looks expensive next to an Impreza and an Impreza looks expensive next to a Clio Cup....
It's just a question of where you draw the line. Anyone who thinks an Impreza is as complete and capable as an M3 is deluding themselves, the price gap feels more justified than the 911-M3 price gap.
(That said, I'm quite keen on getting a C4S. overpriced, but at least you get your money back in the end)
A 911 is more like 60k and the M3 has the benefit of being a proper 4 seater with a boot as well as being just as fast.
It's the laws of diminishing returns though isn't it. Zonda looks very expensive for the extra you get over a Lambo, the Lambo looks expensive next to a Modena, the Modena looks expensive next to a 911, the 911 looks expensive next to an M3, an M3 looks expensive next to an Impreza and an Impreza looks expensive next to a Clio Cup....
It's just a question of where you draw the line. Anyone who thinks an Impreza is as complete and capable as an M3 is deluding themselves, the price gap feels more justified than the 911-M3 price gap.
(That said, I'm quite keen on getting a C4S. overpriced, but at least you get your money back in the end)
12 May 2003, 10:04 AM
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"Anyone who thinks an Impreza is as complete and capable as an M3 is deluding themselves, the price gap feels more justified than the 911-M3 price gap."
Now before you all start I'm not saying that the Impreza is the better car, but I am just interested in what way the M3 is a more capable car than the Scoob. Yes I understand the M3 has better finishing and arguably build quality, feels more solid, has that stupid badge everybody except me seems to want etc. hence I can unserstand it being a more "complete" car than the Scoob, but capability wise how is the M3 that much better - please explain!!!
tiggers
Now before you all start I'm not saying that the Impreza is the better car, but I am just interested in what way the M3 is a more capable car than the Scoob. Yes I understand the M3 has better finishing and arguably build quality, feels more solid, has that stupid badge everybody except me seems to want etc. hence I can unserstand it being a more "complete" car than the Scoob, but capability wise how is the M3 that much better - please explain!!!
tiggers
12 May 2003, 10:33 AM
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I'd rather have a 22B than an M3...so I do ;-P
I'd rather have an 03STIPPP than an M3...so I do ;-P
Once I've driven a car that is more fun and 'complete' (in my context) than the 22 I'll get that.
M3's are just too capable, and therefore too bland at 7/10ths to appeal.
A 996TT would be cool..but it's too small to be anything but a second/third car for me...and then the price is out of proportion.
I'll be trying a Noble at Mole Valley next Saturday, and a VX220/VXT sometime this week to see if the Noble is really £25k more fun...which is what it's all about....image is for BMW and Porker drivers
Chuck
I'd rather have an 03STIPPP than an M3...so I do ;-P
Once I've driven a car that is more fun and 'complete' (in my context) than the 22 I'll get that.
M3's are just too capable, and therefore too bland at 7/10ths to appeal.
A 996TT would be cool..but it's too small to be anything but a second/third car for me...and then the price is out of proportion.
I'll be trying a Noble at Mole Valley next Saturday, and a VX220/VXT sometime this week to see if the Noble is really £25k more fun...which is what it's all about....image is for BMW and Porker drivers
Chuck
12 May 2003, 10:43 AM
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Davyboy,
I would imagine lots of folk here earn 40K or thereabouts its only slightly above the national average. I work for the govt and get around that figure so private sector workers would easily match it. What has money got to do with car choice? You can get an example of almost any type of car within your self appointed price point. Some people just don't like paying massive depreciation for the privelage of being the first owner of a car, thus my intention to pay 25K ish for an M5.
As for the image of the classic Impreza (or any Impreza for that matter) who said it was good certainly not me? Do any Impreza owners buy for the image? If they do they are deluding themselves. The Impreza is a performance bargain not a car to show off in. A lot of M3 owners delude themselves as to the image they project- it is NOT a good one. Nice cars though and deffo worth 40K in fact it's a bit of a bargain at that price. They still have that BMW stigma though.
I would imagine lots of folk here earn 40K or thereabouts its only slightly above the national average. I work for the govt and get around that figure so private sector workers would easily match it. What has money got to do with car choice? You can get an example of almost any type of car within your self appointed price point. Some people just don't like paying massive depreciation for the privelage of being the first owner of a car, thus my intention to pay 25K ish for an M5.
As for the image of the classic Impreza (or any Impreza for that matter) who said it was good certainly not me? Do any Impreza owners buy for the image? If they do they are deluding themselves. The Impreza is a performance bargain not a car to show off in. A lot of M3 owners delude themselves as to the image they project- it is NOT a good one. Nice cars though and deffo worth 40K in fact it's a bit of a bargain at that price. They still have that BMW stigma though.
12 May 2003, 10:50 AM
#119
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"please explain!!!"
Well apart from the equipment levels it is more refined, much faster, nicer power delivery with no lag, has a far better ride, more comfortable, better steering (although both M3 and Impreza are a bit rubbish in this respect), is more economical and IMO more fun to drive....
Okay so some points are not about ultimate thrills, but I did say "complete" which means all areas.
If you had to pick one car to do it all, then it's defintely the one.
Mark
Well apart from the equipment levels it is more refined, much faster, nicer power delivery with no lag, has a far better ride, more comfortable, better steering (although both M3 and Impreza are a bit rubbish in this respect), is more economical and IMO more fun to drive....
Okay so some points are not about ultimate thrills, but I did say "complete" which means all areas.
If you had to pick one car to do it all, then it's defintely the one.
Mark
12 May 2003, 10:57 AM
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Another point..the M3 'image' portrayed is exactly right for the majority of buyers. They dont care what some 'snotty nosed, baseball capped jap crap driver' thinks...they are more concerned with the golf club carpark and the banks secretaries. The majority of people who perceive a problem with the BMW's image are those who can't afford one comfortably. All IMO.
Chuck
Chuck