Designers and why Jap designed cars look awful...
13 May 2003, 08:30 PM
#213
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Back on topic.
It's interesting what you say about the NSX, it seems it's the only japanese car motoring journalists actually give column space for. I've often wondered why the Skylines have been relatively muted in the motoring press.
The ECOTY was a NSX (correct me if I'm wrong), I was hard pushed to go for my Nur over the new NSX Type R - amazing how such an old design has stood the test of time.
Cem
It's interesting what you say about the NSX, it seems it's the only japanese car motoring journalists actually give column space for. I've often wondered why the Skylines have been relatively muted in the motoring press.
The ECOTY was a NSX (correct me if I'm wrong), I was hard pushed to go for my Nur over the new NSX Type R - amazing how such an old design has stood the test of time.
Cem
13 May 2003, 09:10 PM
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What you may not be aware of is the huge 'Race' that occurred in 90/91 to get the first of this 'new generation' cars made between Toyota and Honda... Toyota beat Honda by 4 months with the A22 plant…But the NSX was the next to appear... and a magnificent achievement I have to say... for both manufacturers... one produces a damned near perfect Mid-engined GT and the other a Classic Front Engined GT with active suspension to boot... Great times in the Japanese industry... we are unlikely to see such lovely densely engineered cars for some time... we may in fact never see their like again sadly... such density costs too much for thee and me and the new generation are not curvy and voluptuous and show piece cars but cribbed and costed money makers... when times are hard we all miss out on the 'extras'... it is not all gloom the latest generation are lighter, stronger and some are more powerful... it's just that turbos are almost a thing of the past... and glorious straight 6's that will rev to 8k+ are no more except with the Blue and White propeller on the bonnet and they never had Turbos and never took that huge lung full of air that meant under hand and foot you had wolf howling for blood... stand next to Skyline or a sorted Soarer and bang it on 8000rpm on a rolling road and then try to tell me that the anaesthetised whirr of the BMW is even in the same league… nah… Cem, you did the right thing to get one of the last Skylines enjoy that sound it will too soon be consigned to History… ask anyone old enough to recall the sound of a Healey 3000 [strangely but provokingly] also a straight 6 and a lump appears in their throat and they look all wistful and dewy eyed… well that will be you in the future matey… only the car will be your own Skyline… I adore straight 6’s they are the choice of Gentlemen… the straight 6 is the KING of all engines… that includes the ultimate straight 6 of all… the V12… don’t you just love cars!
13 May 2003, 09:22 PM
#219
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Hmm, the Healey 3000, lovely cars, and something, one day, I hope I will own. The odd thing is, wasn't it, in this way only perhaps, the Dodge Viper of its time - a 'truck' engined muscle car?
And regarding influential Japanese cars, I'm not sure, but have we mentioned the MX5 yet? I have never driven one (but read nothing but praise) and although I am not a huge fan of the looks (Lotus-Elan-alike it may be...), it was enormously influential in bringing about the roadster renaissance of the last 10 years...... and similar to the two cars mentioned above, brought up to date a classic niche of car.
So we have the Japanese Ferrari - the NSX, the Japanese GT - the Soarer, and the Japanese Roadster/Sports Car - the MX5. Two questions present themselves to me therefore. 1. Are there any other model niches where a Japanese car had a similar effect? It is just possible that the road-going rally rep was reborn or perhaps at least reinvented with the Impreza, in Europe at least
(i.e. it was mass produced unlike the Integrale, Ur Quattro and Escort Cossie). 2. Are there any areas of car design where the Japanese have REALLY moved the game on in a truly revolutionary way, and I mean in the sense of the whole package here - the cars mentioned above are fantastic, but they have taken an EXISTING formula, and added to it. Where have the Japanese been truly, originally, creative?
And regarding influential Japanese cars, I'm not sure, but have we mentioned the MX5 yet? I have never driven one (but read nothing but praise) and although I am not a huge fan of the looks (Lotus-Elan-alike it may be...), it was enormously influential in bringing about the roadster renaissance of the last 10 years...... and similar to the two cars mentioned above, brought up to date a classic niche of car.
So we have the Japanese Ferrari - the NSX, the Japanese GT - the Soarer, and the Japanese Roadster/Sports Car - the MX5. Two questions present themselves to me therefore. 1. Are there any other model niches where a Japanese car had a similar effect? It is just possible that the road-going rally rep was reborn or perhaps at least reinvented with the Impreza, in Europe at least
(i.e. it was mass produced unlike the Integrale, Ur Quattro and Escort Cossie). 2. Are there any areas of car design where the Japanese have REALLY moved the game on in a truly revolutionary way, and I mean in the sense of the whole package here - the cars mentioned above are fantastic, but they have taken an EXISTING formula, and added to it. Where have the Japanese been truly, originally, creative?
13 May 2003, 09:26 PM
#220
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mycroft we all drive cars for different reasons , i like a car that gets attention is reasonably fast and reliable and is fun to own and drive , when i want something to give me a REAL buzz i ride a 1000cc bike , NOOOO car will give you the buzz of ripping around on a decent crotch rocket but the supra provides what i require from a car , it gets more (good) attention than any other car ive ever owned/driven (20 years in the car trade) and for the money its cost me i consider it a bargain , if you need a car purely as a 'drivers car'you could prob. find a lot better but that would not be a soarer which is at the end of the day a 'poor mans supra', if you stopped considering yourself as gods gift to everything you would prob. be able to contribute greatly to a lot of bbs' but as it is you just seem to be a 'jack of all trades master of none' whatever the debate if anyone disagrees with the mighty mycroft they are branded as idiots , well that makes you a bigot .
13 May 2003, 09:26 PM
#221
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Nah... the V10 is a 'convenience' for the F1 guys... only one road car carries such a basterdised engine and that engine came from a truck... that is an ignoble motor for a road car... and even the new road cars with them [3?] are only following fashion... the best will always be the engine with multiples of 6 for its cylinder count...
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/13/2003 9:44:13 PM]
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/13/2003 9:44:13 PM]
13 May 2003, 09:30 PM
#223
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You know the one I am talking about and it is not "detroit".
Yes Porsche will continue to make flat 6's with Turbo's
[Edited by davyboy - 5/13/2003 9:39:19 PM]
Yes Porsche will continue to make flat 6's with Turbo's
[Edited by davyboy - 5/13/2003 9:39:19 PM]
13 May 2003, 09:41 PM
#224
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###
...a soarer which is at the end of the day a 'poor mans supra'...
###
No, the Soarer always cost more... the Supra was the poorer cousin... look at the list prices...
###
...if you stopped considering yourself as gods gift to everything you would prob. be able to contribute greatly to a lot of bbs' but as it is you just seem to be a 'jack of all trades master of none' whatever the debate if anyone disagrees with the mighty mycroft they are branded as idiots , well that makes you a bigot
###
I am happy to debate in a reasonable manner... but debate is based on knowledge or facts presented as point and counter point... your first outlined statement is a case in point you propose that the Soarer is a 'poor mans Supra' yet by any measure it never was... to the MK3 it even leant its straight 6 to elevate the motor up the 'social scale' so to speak... then the MKIV came along... the A22 Plant was making a loss... a huge loss... so the MKIV was built to a price... I believe that sales people call that a milk cow... and that is exactly what the Supra did... it was built to a price to assist in keeping the Flagship sportscar around... truly in every sense that matters the Supra was and remained 'til its death, the Soarers poorer cousin... now normally when presented with simple facts like that someone will throw a wobbly and shout 'do you have a life' and the whole thing kicks off... many on here have seen this happen time and time again... someone makes a claim... I shoot it down... no counter claim is delivered instead a war breaks out... because the arguement has been lost to simple logic or greater knowledge...
[Water on driveway... just washed...
]
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/13/2003 9:46:31 PM]
...a soarer which is at the end of the day a 'poor mans supra'...
###
No, the Soarer always cost more... the Supra was the poorer cousin... look at the list prices...
###
...if you stopped considering yourself as gods gift to everything you would prob. be able to contribute greatly to a lot of bbs' but as it is you just seem to be a 'jack of all trades master of none' whatever the debate if anyone disagrees with the mighty mycroft they are branded as idiots , well that makes you a bigot
###
I am happy to debate in a reasonable manner... but debate is based on knowledge or facts presented as point and counter point... your first outlined statement is a case in point you propose that the Soarer is a 'poor mans Supra' yet by any measure it never was... to the MK3 it even leant its straight 6 to elevate the motor up the 'social scale' so to speak... then the MKIV came along... the A22 Plant was making a loss... a huge loss... so the MKIV was built to a price... I believe that sales people call that a milk cow... and that is exactly what the Supra did... it was built to a price to assist in keeping the Flagship sportscar around... truly in every sense that matters the Supra was and remained 'til its death, the Soarers poorer cousin... now normally when presented with simple facts like that someone will throw a wobbly and shout 'do you have a life' and the whole thing kicks off... many on here have seen this happen time and time again... someone makes a claim... I shoot it down... no counter claim is delivered instead a war breaks out... because the arguement has been lost to simple logic or greater knowledge...
[Water on driveway... just washed...
][Edited by Mycroft - 5/13/2003 9:46:31 PM]
13 May 2003, 09:46 PM
#225
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Mycroft......I understand what you are saying, not all but some
But what I am finding and many others on this BBS, is that your claims are always unsubstantiated....they do appear to be your opinion. Now this is not a bad thing, and your comments appear to be "more" welcome....BUT.....as I have yet to be reffered to anything you have done or can hold your hand up any say "thats my work that is" or "I work/ed for Company X so my opinion is based on fact", please don't be offended if I take your veiw with a pinch of salt.
But what I am finding and many others on this BBS, is that your claims are always unsubstantiated....they do appear to be your opinion. Now this is not a bad thing, and your comments appear to be "more" welcome....BUT.....as I have yet to be reffered to anything you have done or can hold your hand up any say "thats my work that is" or "I work/ed for Company X so my opinion is based on fact", please don't be offended if I take your veiw with a pinch of salt.
13 May 2003, 09:54 PM
#227
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it was built to a price to assist in keeping the Flagship sportscar around... truly in every sense that matters the Supra was and remained 'til its death, the Soarers poorer cousin...
So the Soarer is now Toyota's "flagship sportscar", the Supra its "poorer cousin"?
WTF?
(EDIT: ON TOPIC IMO)
[Edited by Pepper - 5/13/2003 9:57:59 PM]
13 May 2003, 09:57 PM
#228
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Davyboy... everyone accuses me of taking from the net... so if that was so... then all I say can be checked... but i keep coming back to the same thing... time... I answer things almost instantly... the only lag is typing or a bit of time to collect my thoughts... hence the edits thing... remeber that?... well that was because I am typing real time and I try to respond quickly to ensure that you can be certain it is me not the 'net' talking... I really am not that skilled to get info that is perfectly relevent to an issue and get it to you in minutes... if I could I would love it... it would be easier and frankly I wouldn't be ashamed to admit it... that would require me to have a bank of computers and 12 pairs of eyes... I have told anyone here, go to a chat room I occasionally post on and check me out 'real time'.
13 May 2003, 10:58 PM
#232
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' it was built to a price to assist in keeping the Flagship sportscar around... truly in every sense that matters the Supra was and remained 'til its death, the Soarers poorer cousin'
is that why the soarer has to be uprated with supra brakes then
is that why the soarer has to be uprated with supra brakes then
13 May 2003, 11:25 PM
#233
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The J-spec. Supra uses the brakes designed and fitted first to the Soarer... I fit the Euro/US brakes to my Soarer that would have been fitted to it had it ever made it to Europe... something I organised for the 'ingrates' on the Supra site just prior to being banned... helped save many 'members' on there a rather large sum of money... didn't go down with Branners and his connections tho... getting brakes at almost half price was me at my usual best... trying to help lots of people and forgetting that there are vested interests everywhere...
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/13/2003 11:26:17 PM]
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/13/2003 11:26:17 PM]
13 May 2003, 11:39 PM
#234
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So you need 'inferior' supra parts to 'uprate'your soarer then , dont blow your trumpet about sourcing cheap parts , anyone can do it if they look around . So lets get this right , your ultimate 2 door rep mobile (John Major of the performance world) has Supra brakes and a SUPRA Mk3 derived engine , S**t i really wish i hadnt bought my Supra and had gone for this bitza , not
13 May 2003, 11:44 PM
#235
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Hey Mycroft , have you still got the 'SUPRA' on your calipers or are you sad enough you have had to grind it off , should have kept it son its prob. the only Supra part you will be able to afford for a while .
13 May 2003, 11:55 PM
#236
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###
So you need 'inferior' supra parts to 'uprate'your soarer then
###
The 4-pot brakes were paid for by the Supra profits... they are far from inferior... but bean counters dictate things and even the Supra didn't get as an option 'til the same time as the Soarer.
###
dont blow your trumpet about sourcing cheap parts , anyone can do it if they look around
###
Getting them from Germany through a Soarer club member in Holland was not as simple as you think and I despite being banned continued to help smooth the path... the price obtained has never been equalled... as to 'anyone can do it' yes but no-one had it took someone pushy like me to get the thing rolling
###
So lets get this right , your ultimate 2 door rep mobile (John Major of the performance world) has Supra brakes and a SUPRA Mk3 derived engine , S**t i really wish i hadnt bought my Supra and had gone for this bitza , not
###
Let me re-phrase that...
So lets get this right, my Soarer, has Toyota 4 pots available as an option on both the Supra and the Soarer in Japan, has an engine nothing like the original FORK LIFT TRUCK engine of the MK3... however as a stop gap to the MKIV the Soarer motor was shoe-horned into the MK3 in a vain effort to keep it up to date, it is the same engine that was stroked to make the lazier, less peppy motor for the MKIV.
I don't think there is a single fact in my paragraph that can be disputed... yours however is full of inaccuracies.
perhaps a little look on the net and you will discover what I say is true... or ask Chris wilson, your own un-official site 'Guru' there is nothing that I have typed that he wouldn't agree with.
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/14/2003 12:29:23 AM]
So you need 'inferior' supra parts to 'uprate'your soarer then
###
The 4-pot brakes were paid for by the Supra profits... they are far from inferior... but bean counters dictate things and even the Supra didn't get as an option 'til the same time as the Soarer.
###
dont blow your trumpet about sourcing cheap parts , anyone can do it if they look around
###
Getting them from Germany through a Soarer club member in Holland was not as simple as you think and I despite being banned continued to help smooth the path... the price obtained has never been equalled... as to 'anyone can do it' yes but no-one had it took someone pushy like me to get the thing rolling
###
So lets get this right , your ultimate 2 door rep mobile (John Major of the performance world) has Supra brakes and a SUPRA Mk3 derived engine , S**t i really wish i hadnt bought my Supra and had gone for this bitza , not
###
Let me re-phrase that...
So lets get this right, my Soarer, has Toyota 4 pots available as an option on both the Supra and the Soarer in Japan, has an engine nothing like the original FORK LIFT TRUCK engine of the MK3... however as a stop gap to the MKIV the Soarer motor was shoe-horned into the MK3 in a vain effort to keep it up to date, it is the same engine that was stroked to make the lazier, less peppy motor for the MKIV.
I don't think there is a single fact in my paragraph that can be disputed... yours however is full of inaccuracies.
perhaps a little look on the net and you will discover what I say is true... or ask Chris wilson, your own un-official site 'Guru' there is nothing that I have typed that he wouldn't agree with.
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/14/2003 12:29:23 AM]
14 May 2003, 01:21 AM
#238
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Moderators kill the jerk please... we might just get back on track but not with this one and the dead person and the now rather vituperative Troll... the latter can stay, but he is about as far as we need the sneer to spit. Ta!
14 May 2003, 01:35 AM
#239
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Talking of niche's.......
Not in the same league as an NSX I know, but the MK2 MR2 (fanfare for own car) filled a nice little niche between the NSX and its rather expensive italian Supercar big brother.
Its got good looks, mid engine layout, rear wheel drive, 2 seater thrills for much less than an NSX and the Turbo's are pretty quick (standard Turbo is 5.5 secs to 60) It was dubbed the poor man's Ferrari when it came out, and it still looks fresh today. They are now extremely affordable to poor people like myself and looks much more expensive than it is.
I love it to bits - it has a fantastic all round package for a car that cost me less than 5k.
If anyone is interested, here's mine (rare colour) :
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.keeling1/html/untitled_stacked_page_9.html
Cheers for reading my babblings!
Rob
Not in the same league as an NSX I know, but the MK2 MR2 (fanfare for own car
) filled a nice little niche between the NSX and its rather expensive italian Supercar big brother. Its got good looks, mid engine layout, rear wheel drive, 2 seater thrills for much less than an NSX and the Turbo's are pretty quick (standard Turbo is 5.5 secs to 60) It was dubbed the poor man's Ferrari when it came out, and it still looks fresh today. They are now extremely affordable to poor people like myself and looks much more expensive than it is.
I love it to bits - it has a fantastic all round package for a car that cost me less than 5k.
If anyone is interested, here's mine (rare colour) :
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.keeling1/html/untitled_stacked_page_9.html
Cheers for reading my babblings!
Rob
14 May 2003, 08:37 AM
#240
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trollhunter / MYCROFT [impersonator]
It would be appreciated if you would keep this thread on an even keel and not rock the boat please. Keep it at a discussion level.
Regards Redkop
It would be appreciated if you would keep this thread on an even keel and not rock the boat please. Keep it at a discussion level.
Regards Redkop