Designers and why Jap designed cars look awful...
11 May 2003, 10:21 PM
#121
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Yep, I can take it chief.
You just have me in stitches with everything you post, I realised a long time ago not to take you seriously, so I have great fun reading all your posts now, a bit of light entertainment is how I see it.
The more you quote me, the better it gets... ;-)
You just have me in stitches with everything you post, I realised a long time ago not to take you seriously, so I have great fun reading all your posts now, a bit of light entertainment is how I see it.
The more you quote me, the better it gets... ;-)
11 May 2003, 10:41 PM
#124
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Downforce is something you don't need on a road car, as you need stiffer springs to prop it up. The goal on a road car is to achieve zero lift (Scoob does pretty well, 3kg lift @ 100mph IIRC).
For all your posturing about how great a Soarer is, do you actually have one Mycroft? If so, why not post a picture (you can edit out the number plate) rather than one that 'looks like it'?
FWIW here's a picture of a car that looks like mine:
except that mines 70 years newer, a different colour, Japanese, a saloon car and 4WD
For all your posturing about how great a Soarer is, do you actually have one Mycroft? If so, why not post a picture (you can edit out the number plate) rather than one that 'looks like it'?
FWIW here's a picture of a car that looks like mine:
except that mines 70 years newer, a different colour, Japanese, a saloon car and 4WD
11 May 2003, 10:44 PM
#125
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For all your posturing about how great a Soarer is, do you actually have one Mycroft? If so, why not post a picture (you can edit out the number plate) rather than one that 'looks like it'?
11 May 2003, 10:58 PM
#126
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Downforce is something you don't need on a road car, as you need stiffer springs to prop it up. The goal on a road car is to achieve zero lift....
###
Where did you get that idea from? I can't believe ANYONE can think that... do you know what benefits there are in a car with a positive downforce?
Downforce is something you don't need on a road car, as you need stiffer springs to prop it up. The goal on a road car is to achieve zero lift....
###
Where did you get that idea from? I can't believe ANYONE can think that... do you know what benefits there are in a car with a positive downforce?
11 May 2003, 11:17 PM
#129
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Where did you get that idea from? I can't believe ANYONE can think that... do you know what benefits there are in a car with a positive downforce?
Go on then, what benefits are there?
11 May 2003, 11:26 PM
#130
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Well, TBH, I don't have the spare time to dig through the magazines. But it was a direct quote from one of those two.
If it was Evo, I'd be able to find it (I keep them all). But I suspect it was Autocar, in which case I've thrown it out
PS: by 'positive downforce' you mean 'positive net downforce', i.e. total weight exceeds that at a standstill, I assume?
PPS: you still haven't explained why it's a benefit. In your lardy Soarer, even at 200 mph with no net downforce you have >1400kg acting downwards and 0kg acting upwards. Seems OK to me. You should only get problems when you start generating lift (e.g. due to the shape of the body).
[Edited by carl - 5/11/2003 11:30:02 PM]
If it was Evo, I'd be able to find it (I keep them all). But I suspect it was Autocar, in which case I've thrown it out
PS: by 'positive downforce' you mean 'positive net downforce', i.e. total weight exceeds that at a standstill, I assume?
PPS: you still haven't explained why it's a benefit. In your lardy Soarer, even at 200 mph
with no net downforce you have >1400kg acting downwards and 0kg acting upwards. Seems OK to me. You should only get problems when you start generating lift (e.g. due to the shape of the body).[Edited by carl - 5/11/2003 11:30:02 PM]
11 May 2003, 11:31 PM
#132
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250kgs of positive weight is fantastic... without some serious wings... that pram handle on the MKIV produes only 40kgs at 90mph and is effectively a 'neutral' unit from 125mph...
12 May 2003, 12:51 AM
#138
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Does a large wing on the back not mess up the aesthetic sleekness of the car which you seek?
TV is for people with small amounts of brain power eh?
Well, being 23 and holding an honours degree and currently studying for a masters I would ask that you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.
There are plenty of people with good qualifications out there, and many more who dont but have lots of common sense.
Watch out if you are thundering along in the Berkshire area as the police will nail you good and hard for anything over 100. You may know where the cameras are, but do you know if they have put one up overnight, or where that unmarked police car will be next?
Reasoned argument is fine, but go easy on the brain power insults -it is unnecessary.
TV is for people with small amounts of brain power eh?
Well, being 23 and holding an honours degree and currently studying for a masters I would ask that you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.
There are plenty of people with good qualifications out there, and many more who dont but have lots of common sense.
Watch out if you are thundering along in the Berkshire area as the police will nail you good and hard for anything over 100. You may know where the cameras are, but do you know if they have put one up overnight, or where that unmarked police car will be next?
Reasoned argument is fine, but go easy on the brain power insults -it is unnecessary.
12 May 2003, 01:13 AM
#139
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I dont have a wing.
.. I have a tiny spoiler at the rear.
TV is a dreadful mind fvck.
.. it makes fools of the watcher and even bigger fools of the watched.
.. but you stay with it mate.
My car bristles with my own 'work made' detectors/blockers
.. I have a tiny spoiler at the rear.
TV is a dreadful mind fvck.
.. it makes fools of the watcher and even bigger fools of the watched.
.. but you stay with it mate.
My car bristles with my own 'work made' detectors/blockers
12 May 2003, 01:18 AM
#140
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iain,
you seem to have forgotten your predicted final post count before leaving - never mind eh.
The Soarer looks like a zillion other anonymous Yank pieces of crap. European looking my @rse - show me a European car that looks like that.
you seem to have forgotten your predicted final post count before leaving - never mind eh.
The Soarer looks like a zillion other anonymous Yank pieces of crap. European looking my @rse - show me a European car that looks like that.
12 May 2003, 01:32 AM
#141
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HA HA HA
Thats a joke right?
You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think those cars look like a Soarer.
You are truly disillusioned and obviously viewing the world through some kind of wierd blurry filter???
Have driven XKR and Viper. Viper was a bit skittish but they're both fun cars though the Jag felt a bit too controlled mainly as it was auto, but the Soarer looks nothing like them, except for the fact its a 2 door and 4 wheeler.
Thats a joke right?
You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think those cars look like a Soarer.
You are truly disillusioned and obviously viewing the world through some kind of wierd blurry filter???
Have driven XKR and Viper. Viper was a bit skittish but they're both fun cars though the Jag felt a bit too controlled mainly as it was auto, but the Soarer looks nothing like them, except for the fact its a 2 door and 4 wheeler.
12 May 2003, 01:43 AM
#142
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You do understand that cars won't be identical.
.. if you studied design to any extent you would understand what was meant by styling cues.
.. it is the line and definition of certain curves to one another.
.. it is that relationship that shows antecedence.
You have to have the eye for such things.
.. it is a mystery to some but to many others it is second nature.
.. can you draw?
.. are you able to stroke half a dozen lines to convey the basic shape of a car?
.. anyone who can will see what I am saying is correct.
.. if you studied design to any extent you would understand what was meant by styling cues.
.. it is the line and definition of certain curves to one another.
.. it is that relationship that shows antecedence.
You have to have the eye for such things.
.. it is a mystery to some but to many others it is second nature.
.. can you draw?
.. are you able to stroke half a dozen lines to convey the basic shape of a car?
.. anyone who can will see what I am saying is correct.
12 May 2003, 01:50 AM
#143
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ah you're a designer now.
funny I thought you were a tyre expert, then a suspension buff, then an engineer, and now a designer.
Damn you're good - but then you already know that.
Shame you can't convince anyone else. I wonder why?
funny I thought you were a tyre expert, then a suspension buff, then an engineer, and now a designer.
Damn you're good - but then you already know that.
Shame you can't convince anyone else. I wonder why?
12 May 2003, 02:01 AM
#145
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Well the degree I have and masters I am studying for is in Architecture and to say these cars look alike (in my design orientated opinion) is a bit futile.
The Soarer isnt an ugly car, its just nowhere near as good looking as the Aston or Viper.
Oh and I will carry on watching TV because:
1/ I am a normal person
2/ I enjoy broadening my horizons and listing to other peoples ideas
3/ Variety is the spice of life.
This is not a dig, but do you just sit on the net most evenings?
The Soarer isnt an ugly car, its just nowhere near as good looking as the Aston or Viper.
Oh and I will carry on watching TV because:
1/ I am a normal person
2/ I enjoy broadening my horizons and listing to other peoples ideas
3/ Variety is the spice of life.
This is not a dig, but do you just sit on the net most evenings?
12 May 2003, 02:14 AM
#146
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Well the degree I have and masters I am studying for is in Architecture and to say these cars look alike (in my design orientated opinion) is a bit futile.
###
You will be dictated to by the restraints of Architecture... for the most part composite curves will play only the tiniest role in your design work, you will be mainly concerned with straight lines and the only curves will be in plan view.
This doesn't really give you real insight into the design of a motor car.
.. you have to design things for humans and we like vertical lines.
.. Antoni Gaudi was the last 'amorphous' designer of buildings that bulged and had composite curves... well that I can recall of any note.
###
The Soarer isnt an ugly car, its just nowhere near as good looking as the Aston or Viper.
###
That is maybe just a very 'Anglo-centric' view, we have the memory of DB5s' etc... now correctly and intelligently transposed to a more modern sleek shape the new car will be pleasing... but try to tranpose that DB5 on say a modern Mercedes or Porsche base and it won't work, so take the cues from DB5 and tranpose them to the Soarer... suddenly all the lines fit...
###
This is not a dig, but do you just sit on the net most evenings?
###
I am at work and it makes the time pass easily to come here and taunt a few fools and meet the occasional thoughtful person... I encounter fools mostly...
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/12/2003 2:16:39 AM]
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/12/2003 2:21:16 AM]
Well the degree I have and masters I am studying for is in Architecture and to say these cars look alike (in my design orientated opinion) is a bit futile.
###
You will be dictated to by the restraints of Architecture... for the most part composite curves will play only the tiniest role in your design work, you will be mainly concerned with straight lines and the only curves will be in plan view.
This doesn't really give you real insight into the design of a motor car.
.. you have to design things for humans and we like vertical lines.
.. Antoni Gaudi was the last 'amorphous' designer of buildings that bulged and had composite curves... well that I can recall of any note.
###
The Soarer isnt an ugly car, its just nowhere near as good looking as the Aston or Viper.
###
That is maybe just a very 'Anglo-centric' view, we have the memory of DB5s' etc... now correctly and intelligently transposed to a more modern sleek shape the new car will be pleasing... but try to tranpose that DB5 on say a modern Mercedes or Porsche base and it won't work, so take the cues from DB5 and tranpose them to the Soarer... suddenly all the lines fit...
###
This is not a dig, but do you just sit on the net most evenings?
###
I am at work and it makes the time pass easily to come here and taunt a few fools and meet the occasional thoughtful person... I encounter fools mostly...
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/12/2003 2:16:39 AM]
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/12/2003 2:21:16 AM]
12 May 2003, 02:26 AM
#148
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you have a great talent for talking out of your batty thats for sure:
i think you'll find that most people with talent don't need to run around shouting it from the rooftops, or bbs
now lets look at your suggestions:
viper - no chance
http://www.vipercentral.com/pics/gts/gts31.jpg
Z28
the latest ones look a little bland but still much more aggressive stance than your pooper scooper
(had a 1974 camaro for a while - now that had character - unlike your anonymous heap
)
Mitsubishi Eclipse - puleeeease! You're delirious
maserati GT
http://www.maserati.co.uk/current/coupe/images/coupe_intro.jpg
you're clutching at straws - though it does look somewhat early 80s American
DB7 - nope
http://www.fantasycars.com/Aston_Martin_DB7/Aston_Martin__DB7_Photos/Aston_Martin__DB7_Photo_7/pic07.jpg
XKR - somewhat but then it looks more like an e-type than a soarer if you're using 6 lines
http://www.desktopwallpapers.net/cars/jaguar/jaguarxkr08_800x600.jpg
yours looks most like a(nother) bland notchback - the 200sx touring, and many anonymous American models that I can't name as they are anonymous and I have no interest in them, but I see regularly in the States. Its based on designs seen on cars of 60, 70s and 80s only its been smoothed to oblivion - it has no 'style' or 'character'.
maybe you aspire to own a 200sx next?
http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/336000-336999/336386_7_full.jpg
http://www.carprices.co.uk/images/nissan200.jpg
byeuch
by the way, a fool encountering an intelligent person will usually think he has just met a fool. I think we may just have made some progress here tonight iain
i think you'll find that most people with talent don't need to run around shouting it from the rooftops, or bbs
now lets look at your suggestions:
viper - no chance
http://www.vipercentral.com/pics/gts/gts31.jpg
Z28
the latest ones look a little bland but still much more aggressive stance than your pooper scooper
(had a 1974 camaro for a while - now that had character - unlike your anonymous heap
)Mitsubishi Eclipse - puleeeease! You're delirious
maserati GT
http://www.maserati.co.uk/current/coupe/images/coupe_intro.jpg
you're clutching at straws - though it does look somewhat early 80s American
DB7 - nope
http://www.fantasycars.com/Aston_Martin_DB7/Aston_Martin__DB7_Photos/Aston_Martin__DB7_Photo_7/pic07.jpg
XKR - somewhat but then it looks more like an e-type than a soarer if you're using 6 lines
http://www.desktopwallpapers.net/cars/jaguar/jaguarxkr08_800x600.jpg
yours looks most like a(nother) bland notchback - the 200sx touring, and many anonymous American models that I can't name as they are anonymous and I have no interest in them, but I see regularly in the States. Its based on designs seen on cars of 60, 70s and 80s only its been smoothed to oblivion - it has no 'style' or 'character'.
maybe you aspire to own a 200sx next?
http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/336000-336999/336386_7_full.jpg
http://www.carprices.co.uk/images/nissan200.jpg
byeuch
by the way, a fool encountering an intelligent person will usually think he has just met a fool. I think we may just have made some progress here tonight iain
12 May 2003, 02:38 AM
#149
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"You will be dictated to by the restraints of Architecture... for the most part composite curves will play only the tiniest role in your design work, you will be mainly concerned with straight lines and the only curves will be in plan view."
Unless you have studied the 5 years of design that I have you wouldnt know that Architecture doesnt limit itself to building design. Influences can come from anywhere but a lot is from nature where there are no straight lines.
Composite curves can play a huge role if you are influenced by the works of Frank O Gehry (see art museum in Bilbao, Vitra factory in Germany, Gugenheim in New York etc.)
Its true to say that Gaudi was a master of design, yet if you study his work, (I have been to all his famous works in Barcelona) you would see a lot of regular basic arrangement in plan and section, it his tromp l'oeil tactics which are superb. Parabolic roof curvature is fascinating though, and did break boundaries.
"This doesn't really give you real insight into the design of a motor car."
Accepted - but I would argue that I have a pretty good eye for design and I can see when something is alike and when it is very similar.
"you have to design things for humans and we like vertical lines."
Form follows function, in most cases (as do tight budgets), but with the likes of Zaha Hadid, things do not have to be vertical and orchestrated to appeal to both a buildings efficiency and aesthetic beauty.
"That is maybe just a very 'Anglo-centric' view"
Fair enough - cant argue that one.
"I am at work and it makes the time pass easily to come here and taunt a few fools and meet the occasional thoughtful person"
Just wondering thats all, Its nice to talk about cars and get away from work so I will shut up about architecture and plan out the mods to my MR2!!!
Unless you have studied the 5 years of design that I have you wouldnt know that Architecture doesnt limit itself to building design. Influences can come from anywhere but a lot is from nature where there are no straight lines.
Composite curves can play a huge role if you are influenced by the works of Frank O Gehry (see art museum in Bilbao, Vitra factory in Germany, Gugenheim in New York etc.)
Its true to say that Gaudi was a master of design, yet if you study his work, (I have been to all his famous works in Barcelona) you would see a lot of regular basic arrangement in plan and section, it his tromp l'oeil tactics which are superb. Parabolic roof curvature is fascinating though, and did break boundaries.
"This doesn't really give you real insight into the design of a motor car."
Accepted - but I would argue that I have a pretty good eye for design and I can see when something is alike and when it is very similar.
"you have to design things for humans and we like vertical lines."
Form follows function, in most cases (as do tight budgets), but with the likes of Zaha Hadid, things do not have to be vertical and orchestrated to appeal to both a buildings efficiency and aesthetic beauty.
"That is maybe just a very 'Anglo-centric' view"
Fair enough - cant argue that one.
"I am at work and it makes the time pass easily to come here and taunt a few fools and meet the occasional thoughtful person"
Just wondering thats all, Its nice to talk about cars and get away from work so I will shut up about architecture and plan out the mods to my MR2!!!
12 May 2003, 09:11 AM
#150
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Unless you have studied the 5 years of design that I have you wouldnt know that Architecture doesnt limit itself to building design. Influences can come from anywhere but a lot is from nature where there are no straight lines.
Composite curves can play a huge role if you are influenced by the works of Frank O Gehry (see art museum in Bilbao, Vitra factory in Germany, Gugenheim in New York etc.)
###
These are rare buildings... you can name them individually... that alone informs us that we are dealing with exceptional, rare Architecture.
You are unlikley to get the opportunity/recognition to design such buildings and even then the Architect is only a 'Team leader' he will have a Budget and a Client and any excesses will be curbed from the outset.
.. he will have a team to perform mundane tasks like make the Drainage work or ensure that the Lift is not some pretty glass ornament, but passes all the Fire and Safety regs.
.. Your Technician will draw your building on his CAD station and you will be occupied dealing with regulation and 'conformity'. Your building will also be under the greatest sway not by curve or line or even beauty... but the controlling hand of a Structural Engineer who will also make things 'straight'.
There is little that ties a car designer to an Architect, they are really very different disciplines.
.. the mere fact that one is 'sedantry and the other all about movement says it all really.
.. A good car design should look as if it is moving and 'fast' when standing on the driveway.
.. I wouldn't want any building I worked in to feel even vaguely 'unplanted'.
Unless you have studied the 5 years of design that I have you wouldnt know that Architecture doesnt limit itself to building design. Influences can come from anywhere but a lot is from nature where there are no straight lines.
Composite curves can play a huge role if you are influenced by the works of Frank O Gehry (see art museum in Bilbao, Vitra factory in Germany, Gugenheim in New York etc.)
###
These are rare buildings... you can name them individually... that alone informs us that we are dealing with exceptional, rare Architecture.
You are unlikley to get the opportunity/recognition to design such buildings and even then the Architect is only a 'Team leader' he will have a Budget and a Client and any excesses will be curbed from the outset.
.. he will have a team to perform mundane tasks like make the Drainage work or ensure that the Lift is not some pretty glass ornament, but passes all the Fire and Safety regs.
.. Your Technician will draw your building on his CAD station and you will be occupied dealing with regulation and 'conformity'. Your building will also be under the greatest sway not by curve or line or even beauty... but the controlling hand of a Structural Engineer who will also make things 'straight'.
There is little that ties a car designer to an Architect, they are really very different disciplines.
.. the mere fact that one is 'sedantry and the other all about movement says it all really.
.. A good car design should look as if it is moving and 'fast' when standing on the driveway.
.. I wouldn't want any building I worked in to feel even vaguely 'unplanted'.
