Diablo

OH NO....

Who let you on!!!!!

Only joking Mike . Welcome to this BBS.

D.

Stef

You finally got your password then Mike!
Welcome to the real BBS!
The reason I 'neglected' to mention your terminal speed was because as I understand it, it's the 1/4 mile time that counts, and there I WAS only 0.1 sec behind you!!
I'm sure it will be a different story on the 31st if you can sort yourself out (If!).
I'll be there anyway, and hopefully there'll be a few other Scoobs running so we can get a more balanced Impreza/Cossie comparison (with equal mods, of course!).

Stef.

Mike Rainbird

Dear Stef,
The diff arrives tomorrow and only takes an hour to put on, so I WILL be there on the 31st!

I would also advise that I am currently in the process of trying to get Fast Ford magazine to attend (I am waiting for the editor to call me back). At present he has intimated that he would like to send someone along to record the battle (he has somehow heard through the grapevine about the playful banter between the groups - not from me I hasten to add!). If this comes off, rest assured the place will be swamped with RSs hoping to get their car in print! In view of this, it might make an ideal venue for some of your cars to turn up and humiliate the "bull**** bhp" brigade with your genuine 250-280bhp cars.

In the meantime, I have a very good photo of your car staged on the line which I will e-mail to you.

I know I'll see Stef there, but what about the rest of you "yellow bellies"! You all seem content to sit back and "talk the talk", but when it comes to the point of having to "walk the walk", you all chicken out with excuses like "I didn't buy my car for straight line speed"; "That won't prove which car is fastest from A to B"; "I don't like thrashing it"; etc. etc. I realise that it proves nothing other than whose car can accelerate from 0-400m the quickest. However, as most magazines record this as a test figure, it will enable you to compare your car to others to get a comparison in performance - or even to see if you can match the figures given for your car (or like Stef - BEAT them!). Before you say that there is no skill involved, I bet there won't be many of you that can even match the figures given for your cars, as there is a bit more to it than the traffic light grand-prix than you would imagine!

Also it is only £8 to get in and £10 to race ALL day, as many times as you like from 10.00 'til 17.00....(But don't forget to bring your driving licence!).

See you there - or will it just be Stef again?!
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk Group Chairman

Orville

Stef,
Hows the clutch? I'm perfectly willing to thrash my Scoob through the gears but putting 240odd bhp through the transmission from idle will work out expensive - eventually. I guess the reason most Scoob owners backed down was from fear of hurting their cars. Subaru parts are more expensive and less readily available than Ford. I wonder how many dumps I'd get out of my clutch before replacement.

Well done Stef, you're a braver man than me.

Craig H

I'd like to go and have my STi see off most of those pesky cossies! But it's a day after a track day so I think I'll be sensible.

firefox

Hi guys...

In my opinion... the Scoobs will be slated..

Chances are alot of tuners will attend..GGR..BBR...MAD.. Well Lane.. alot of these Cossies are designed for 1/4 dragging... if they have 4wd then forget it *aslong as they dont blow* lol

If you were to put a standard Cossie against a standard Scoob...then that would be fair..

Any so-called Scooby tuners out there want to bring their cars along ? I know GGR have a Scoob (or two)... PE ?... Interpro ? Scoobysport ?

Come on guys... this is the time to show off your work....

Thats hould get them going.. lol

J.

Stef

Orville.
My clutch is fine, but I wouldn't say I 'dump' it. I've read various articles about holding the revs @ 6000 and dumping the clutch, but I've yet to be brave enough to try this. To be honest I don't see the point.
And the end of the day, if the clutch was to go it would be replaced under warranty, would it not?

Craig.
Stop looking for excuses and get your butt down here! It's only £18 all in.

Mike.
I think it would spoil the day if loads of RS's turned up, or do you just mean to spectate? A few like last time would be fine, but if it's going to be really busy the queues are going to be ridiculous.
I think I'll just turn up early and get some runs in then.
I'm quite happy to run against a similar specced Cossie if this magazine are happy to publish the results, which to be honest I think is unlikely. Fast Ford publicly showing Subarus kicking their butt? I think not!
Make an interseting article for an independent magazine though....anyone got a friend who works for EVO/Redline/Revs?
That WOULD make it interesting.

Stef.
PS Thanks for the picci'!



[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 22-10-1999).]

Craig H

Stef,
No excuses - with the choice I'd just rather do Donington. It's one or the other I'm afraid.
Anyway, I'm sure they'll be a few Cossies that I can embarrass there!

Mike Rainbird

Dear Stef,
Have e-mailed EVO magazine, will see what they have to say (if anything). Check out the RSOC sight for news on Fast Ford to save me typing it all again!
Best regards
Mike
Norfolk RSOC Chairman

Mike Rainbird

Dear All,
As you can see by how many people are bringing along mates with Imprez(zzzzzz!)as, quite a few RS owners are actually friends with Scooby owners, so it should be a good day for making new friends and getting everyone to appreciate both marques....
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk RSOC Chairman

JohnS

iTrader: (1)

I had a phone call today from Mark who owns probably the most powerful Impreza in Scotland, and told him about the Santa Pod events. He can't make it on the 31st or 6th November (ADMC track day at Knockill), but may be interested in an event next year.

He has been there before, and has done one run in under 12 seconds with a terminal speed of about 120 mph Might be able to push the very fast Cosworths a bit closer.

I'll keep him informed of any future events....

[This message has been edited by JohnS (edited 25-10-1999).]

Stef

Cheers John.
I'll keep you posted on here of future events. Sounds just like the ammo we need!

Stef.

Mike Rainbird

Dear Stef,
Following on from your posting about pairing the cars up, I am in agreement and realise that the way I originally suggested would probably be unworkable. However, we could do it in a similar way, but let everyone have a couple of runs each and then pair people up with similar times. How does that sound? I realise that it might not pair up similar bhp cars, but by pairing up similar times, it will make for more interesting racing (and save some of the RS owners from red faces from being beaten by 250bhp Subarus after boasting of 400bhp!). See you there and look forward to seeing the legendary 400bhp Impreza one day! In the meantime, I would advise you that we have a genuine 460bhp (recorded on rolling road as per Fast Ford few months back) Escort Cosworth coming (T4 turbo, eight injector plenum etc.). It is also allegedly running £5,000 worth of Quaife gearbox, so it's times "should" be impressive! And if I don't get a 12s run I'm gonna cry and stamp my feet, because I did over ten of them when we went in May!
Best regards
Mike
Norfolk RSOC Chairman

Stef

Sounds more workable Mike. I feel the logistics on the day of pairing cars up however will still be difficult. If it was solely RS' and Imprezas no problem, but it won't be.
Whilst it would certainly make the racing closer, it seems to me that it would only reinforce the 'Scooby > Cossie' argument, as we would be running against cars more powerful than ours, yet finishing very close to (ie, in front of!! ) them.
Would your Cossie colleagues be able to handle that?
More importantly, would 'Fast Ford' publish that?

Stef.


[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 25-10-1999).]

Tal

Hello all this is my first post!!

I think all performance cars owners should continue to build bridges like this, because if we all dont shout loudly as fatty Prescott we will all be driving 1.0 ltr lpg city cars in 5 years time. There must be 100's of thousands of people who will protest to fatsos plans lets start an action group (RS owners Scooby owners Porky owners Tvr lotus ect ect) LETS START SHOUTING the way its going I wont be able to drive my Scooby when I finally get it !!

Cheers
Tal
(p.s. anyone want to buy my 106 GTi!!!)

Jonathan

From my independent viewpoint (Audi owner). There SEEMS to be lot of people that own Cosworths that have spent well in excess of 2-3,000 on engine mods for their cars. Even though Ive organised all the southern Rolling Road days and we've had in excess of 100 cars only a small percentage have had over 300bhp. The number of owners that have spent (excluding Prodrive models) in excess of 2,000 on engine mods can be counted on one hand if not three fingers. Everyone in the Scooby camp is looking towards one guy in Scotland for major power. A lot of Scooby owners have spent 3,000 plus on their cars, but that has gone on Brembos, Leda and Wheels. I think one of the main factors is lack of affordable/ reliable big horsepower conversions. Ive read all the boy racer mags for the past 10 years or so and what always gives me a chuckle is the 200bhp R5, 300bhp RS Turbo that turns out to a shootout and SUDDENLY come post a time has clutch slip or similar. Speaking to one of the big Ford tuners come Subaru tuners there are some big bhp Cossie out there. A lot dont produce the numbers claimed and some that do might be good for a drag stip, but crap on the road as well as the ones that have a life expectency of weeks rather than years.

An interesting Pod visit would to my mind have:

std Escort Cosworth vs Impreza Turbo
std Escort Cosworth vs STI
ECU & Exhaust Cosworth vs STI ECU & Exhaust

STEF vs ALLCOMMERS

After that IF the Scooby is still quicker then bring on the big brigade for a magazine article.

If the Scooby is still quickest I'll stuff everyone with my A3.


Putting a car with 5,000 worth of engine mods against one with 700 doesnt show anything.


Jonathan

Hoping to stay off the booze on Sat night so I can make it.

Mike Rainbird

Dear Jonathan,
I would just like to say I disagree with your last comment about putting a car with £5000 worth of engine mods against one with £700 - I think it is a good comparison. Some people may wish to spend £15,000 on an Escort Cossie and then spend loads on the engine, whereas others might want to spend £20,000 on an Impreza and £700 on the engine. Accordingly, if the comparison is made, people can see what sort of performance / reliablity they can expect to get when they see the various cars on the track / strip. That way they may change their mind and decide one or the other is more important to them. For example, my own persnonal choice is power over everything else (the rush is just un-matched outside the bedroom!) and although the Impreza is a MUCH better all round car, it cannot match the sheer thrill of being able to out accelerate Superbikes (only when rolling mind you, not from the lights!). I have driven quite a few Impreza's and although the noise and handling is near perfect, I just couldn't take a backwards step in performance. When I looked into tuning the Impreza, I realised that 300bhp would be the safe limit, which would be just too slow and controlled in 4wd other than in the wet. No disrespect to any Scooby owners, but your Nan could drive the car fast and not get into trouble with the grip / handling. A powerful rwd car is a different matter, and (I feel) has to be treated with the utmost respect, or it will turn round and kill you (or at the very least punt you backwards through a hedge!). For me, walking this fine line of throttle control is part of the joy of a 2wd Cossie - I don't want to be able to bury the throttle in any conditions and know the car will get me out of it - I want to feel part of the experience, like the car wouldn't go as fast if it didn't have ME at the wheel (an ego thing, I know I'm sad!). So to me it is a valid comparison, as (thank God) everyone is different and wants different things from a car / life (otherwise we wouldn't have all these beautiful cars to drive / look at / drool over!). At the end of the day, you pays ya money and ya makes ya choice! (Can I have BOTH please?!).

Now I wonder what an A3 will do the quarter in?! Probably is too heavy and underpowered and will get mauled by an old RS Turbo.....
See you all there.
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk RSOC Chairman

robski

Oh dear, power over everything, nuff said.

robski

robski

Ive just re-read Jonathans post, and its spot on. RE mikes comment, 15K + 5K mods on RS, compared to 20K on scoob, what rubbish.
Buy a 15K STi, and 5K mods thats a closer comparison.

Mike, compare like with like. Its just that you KNOW that in std spec the cossies are not going to match the scoobs, so you have to run heavily modified against "normal" scoobs to get the results you want.

Look at Stef's figures against yours. I would personally take his figures over yours always. How far ahead of you must he have got for you to have beaten him going that much faster at the line?

Your attitude is typical of an RS owner, speed is everything, I was doing 115 he was only doing 100........ You dont want that for the road, not in the UK anyway. And which car comes off better on the track?

robski

Diablo

Sorry Robski, but I can see where Mike is coming from.

Horses for courses and all that. You don't drive a 2wd cossie for its ultimate handling prowess. You may, on the other hand, drive one for its ability to produce monster power.

What everyone seems to forget here is that the 4 cylinder cosworth engine was designed to produce up to 500 odd bhp (I believe for the BTCC) and was detuned for road use.

Conversely, the Boxer 4 was designed as a road engine and then adapted for the WRC (and Japanese road racing!!)

As a result it is quite obvious why it is easier and cheaper to get big BHP from the Cossies and not the Scoobs.

At the end of the day its a personal choice.

D.

Dieter

My son has a genuine 330+BHP 3dr Cosworth which cost < 11K all in (i.e. purchase + mods). Whilst we both agree it may not be as agile point to point it sure is a lot lot faster than my RB5 (st'd + SUL) when you're rolling.

Standing 1/4 miles are initially about grip (getting the power down) and then outright power. ( All 2-wd drive cars will lag behind 4-wd cars initially so absolute power is less (ir)relevant). Terminal speeds, as previously mentioned, will be different (though overall times may be similar) and this more accurately reflects absolute power.

A question for Mike. There doesn't seem to be any (many) high powered 4wd sapphires? Is this because the 4-wd system (like the Impreza?) can't take > 350BHP! You mentioned that the Escort had a 'Quaife' box.
A straight 'fight' between RS and Subaru 4-wds ought to be interesting.
What were the times for the (old) sprintex supercharged XR4x4 (250BHP).
Cheers,
Dieter
PS Frankly I could't give a toss which is faster. I think the point of owning any car is that you enjoy it for the specific reasons which you bought it!
PPS Robski I thought all the comments related to a standing 1/4 mile scenario, not a road scenario. What Mike stated is fact.

[This message has been edited by Dieter (edited 26-10-1999).]

robski

Yes but thats my whole point. Why are we trying to prove that cossies are better cos they can out drag a scoob at santa pod?
Its got grippy tarmac for starters thats designed to allow the monster machines to actually get off the line. Unless I am mistaken they havnt started laying this at junctions to allow a better get away.

I know cossies generate more power. I know that Mikes will be doing 115 at 1/4 mile, but its not on a road where we actually use these cars! If he does drive his car where it will outperform a scoob, i.e. fast dual and motorway at 115mph, hes going to loose his licence sooner or later, FACT! So then his 400bhp is going to be sitting in his garage, or (and I am not saying he will do this, be driven illegally).

Just what are we trying to prove here? If its purely 1/4 mile times then there are some much faster cars out there, that are generally very light, with highly tuned motors. And as someone else pointed out previously, how often do you hear about problems with highly tuned cossies and RS's, every (and I know quite a few) person I know with a highly tuned car has problems (not just fords). Clutches, gearboxes, engine internals, batteries, everything else isnt designed to run that way, yes you can upgrade them as well, but do you want reliability or massive power when it decides to work? (just look at Jap tuning, where again power is everything. They dont use these cars everyday, cos they wont last).

Have a close look at peoples dyno plots when they show them to you, often highly modded cars are down on torque/power upto 3-4000 revs, then they get stronger. So to get the best out of this car on the road you must ensure that you stay above that range all the time. This makes the car less driveable.

robski

Stef

You're all making valid points for all the right reasons.
The ONLY reason I go to Santa Pod is to see what times I can run.
I do not go to stuff Cossies, that's simply a bonus!
The Scoob' is not a 1/4 mile specialist, but like a lot of 4WD cars, it is an 'off the line ' specialist.
Comparing what people spend on cars is rubbish! The only reason Cossies are cheaper initially is because they're older cars, and then you can spend more on mods 'cos there are more mods available.
It is my opinion that a Scoob uses the power it has much better than any Cossie. which is why like for like, the Scoob will always win.
Track days and 1/4 miles runs allow me to use my car in a way I'm not able to on the road, and that is why I love them. I couldn't care less if a 330bhp Cossie beats me or not. I simply aim to improve on my own performances.
If it were legal to do 'runs' on normal roads, I think the Scoob would only further expand the gap between itself and the Cossie. Whilst I'm not denying that high powered 2WD cars are involving to drive, the highly tuned Cossie that are out there simply don't have the driveability for normal road use. Yes, they look good rumbling through the town centre, and yes, they're quick on the track (as long as they stay on!! ) and the strip, but give them a good old British B road and.....well, you know the rest!
Let's just see what happens on Sunday eh?

Mike.
If the traction on the start is the problem, are you not able to put the power down gently off the line and then do a 'rolling start' to make up?

Jonathan.
I've absolutely no doubt that in every contest you mention, the Scoob would win....excepting perhaps 'Stef vs. Allcomers', there were some VERY quick dragsters there you know!

See you all on Sunday.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 26-10-1999).]

robski

Stef,

have you seen my email?

Robski

Stef

Robski.

Yes, thank you.
I'll be caling you shortly (no phone here!) Save them for me!

Stef.

Mike Rainbird

Dear Robski,
Although you read my posting, you obviously DIDN'T understand what I was saying. I'm not saying you HAVE to spend £20k on an Impreza, I was saying some people will WANT to buy a brand new car and spend £700 on a few performance bits and be content with that. However, there are those who will want more, and will buy the Cossie for £15k and spend the same amount in total (as in just over £20k), but they will chose to spend their money on making the car extremely powerful (but still spending the same amount!) i.e. what I was saying is that some will chose a reliability / performance compromise and some won't! e.g. Ya pays ya money and ya makes ya choice!!! Comprendez?!

I'm not slating Impreza's in any way (other than in mild banter) as I love 'em (an Evo 6 would be my choice though - not as characterful engine, but is more tuneable (here we go again, back to what I must have - POWER!!)). The only reason why I want as many cars (other than RSs) in attendance is 1. To show people what can be done to a ten year old car. (401 lb ft of torque at 3500 revs - is that "grunt" enough for you Robski!)
2. To be shown how things have progressed and what other people are doing to THEIR cars.
3. To make new "petrol-headed" friends.
4. To have a fun, relatively cheap (unless something goes bang!)day out.
5. To beat my best ever time of 12.64s.
6. To see other people beat their best times and share in knowledge / launch technique / banter / jokes / stories etc. etc.
7. To kick Stefs ****! (Joke!, as knowing my luck, this will be the time I fluff the start!).
Re-read what I said and TRY to understand where I am coming from.....
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk Group Chairman

robski

Mike,

I am working on all the possible combinations of car, mod for 20K
1) Y plate fiesta 1.1Gl, + £19,300 of mods
2).....

maybe you can explain the relevance of comparing an old car with mods to a new one without?

I like cossies. I seriously considered a scort, but decided I didnt like the image they now have, and the fact that a decent example is very hard to find, as most are now starting to get a bit tatty.

Its just that you are not comparing like with like.

robski

Diablo

Robski,

You're missing the point.

Its not really about comparing like with like.

Mike wants power - thats what he enjoys in his car. Its that simple.

D.

Mike Rainbird

Dear Robski,
I can't believe that you STILL don't get it! All I am saying is that it is "horses for courses" etc. etc. Not everyone wants the same thing! Some people want ABSOLUTE power, some are content with a little, some don't want ANY! (1.1 Fiesta, A to B brigade), some want a compromise, some don't - do I really have to spell it out this simply?! (SOMEONE please help!). If you want an absolute Jack of all Trades (and Master of most) then buy an Impreza they can't be beaten (especially if you take VFM into account). However, for MY liking the Subaru is TOO sanitised and tame... This is just my opinion. However, for example - my Father HATES my car, to him it is too noisey, harsh and unreliable. To me it is music, the right side of firm and just about put up with-able (considering the performance). Now do you get it?! People are different and want different things and different things are different people's priority (fuel consumption, safety, reliability, customer service, performance, handling). Everyone chooses something that they like most in a car and buy it for that reason....
Another reason for buying a Cossie, is that in six years the project is STILL ongoing - I love modifying it, it is a hobby / passion to get the BEST from it (The latest purchases are some beautiful quality GReddy gauges - exhaust gas temp, oil temp and oil pressure with peak and memory recall, all as seen in the top Jap tuned cars (see they are good for something these Impreza's!))
Please tell me you finally understand...!
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk RSOC Chairman

chrisp

I think it comes down to what your after, I agree that a scooby is very easy to drive quickly and safely .

I my case I wanted a new car and was high performance straight out of the box, good warranty, reliability and could be insured easily. I looked at cosworths but couldn't a find a good standard one. I think Mike would agree that its better to get a standard one then you know your starting point and do the mods properly.

I also understand that people want to make their car individual whether it is bodykits, alloys, engine mods, exhausts, ICE etc. What ever car you drive someone it bound to have a more powerful/fast/better handling one . Except that Tornado pilot, Andy (somebody) who borrowed Richard Nobles motor .

"pays ya money takes ya choice" .

Cheers

Chrisp