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crap TD04 hybrid upgrade. Help.

Old 17 February 2019, 07:26 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by wrx2005 View Post
Andy carr...
Do you want to expand on that comment ??
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Old 19 February 2019, 07:25 PM
  #32  
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Any updates from OP?
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Old 23 February 2019, 11:19 PM
  #33  
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I don't know enough about mapping to know whether duty cycles could be seen but I'd have thought if that were an obvious issue he'd have spotted it.

Next thing is to check for boost leak. If that's clear I'm not sure whether to get a harvey up pipe or look for a vf28. Dynos I've seen for them look considerably better than mine in spool, boost and torque.

How do I test the actuator? I have a bike pump with gauge so might be possible. I've not yet tried boosting without actuator connected. That's tomorrow.
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Old 23 February 2019, 11:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Gambit View Post
if injectors where max'd out youd have thought the mapper would have mentioned it
Originally Posted by LiamB View Post
What injectors are you on? A quick spot the difference between your spec and mine makes me think that that's the route cause. Might also be the reason why the mapper hasn't gone for more boost as the standard WRX injectors won't deliver enough fuel to keep the AFR healthy at higher boost (remember that the hybrid will be providing a higher mass flow rate of air than the standard TD04 will at the same boost, hence why boost has been turned down). I'm on 550cc STI pinks and it made something like 304bhp and 303lbft @ 1.3 bar.

I remember another guy on here who had the same spec as you and got circa 285bhp and was told that the injectors were maxed out.
I don't think mapper turned boost down. It seemed to me he couldn't get more out of it and thought it was odd. he'd recommended the hybrid and was expecting better than what we got.
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Old 24 February 2019, 11:41 AM
  #35  
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why don't you take it to a subaru specialist who maps and works on cars they will know whats wrong probably something simple who built the turbo by the way mine was done by craig bellworthy
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Old 24 February 2019, 12:15 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by BrownPantsRacing View Post
Too be honest, it's still a reasonable figure for a TD04.

How does it drive now compared to before (ignoring what you know about the dyno graphs)?
I replaced plugs and IACV (which had been giving trouble). There is not as much go low down as there was but I definitely notice it doesn't run out of puff past about 5.5K like it used to. Probably by about 4K revs the improvement is noticeable, and it's quite nice at about 6-6.5K, But that's not how I generally drive, and not primarily what I was after. I wanted more low to midrange torque.
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Old 24 February 2019, 12:16 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Russell38 View Post
why don't you take it to a subaru specialist who maps and works on cars they will know whats wrong probably something simple who built the turbo by the way mine was done by craig bellworthy
https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/
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Old 24 February 2019, 02:49 PM
  #38  
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Did you do a boost leak test? I took my FMIC pipe work off once to do a job, put it all back on, all clamps tight but the car just wasn't boosting as expected. I made a tube I could connect at turbo inlet with a Schroeder valve on it, pressurised the system to 1bar and had leaks from several of the hose joiners even know the clamps were tight as well as a leak at the throttle body gasket. It was causing weird pulsations with the boost and not reaching the previous peak pressure. Had to reseat all the hoses and tighten up again and fit new TB gasket. I've also had weak spool which was caused by a crap up-pipe gasket and another time by a cracked exhaust manifold crossover pipe which wasn't noticeably leaking at idle but clearly was when pressures built up in the exhaust when driving hard... just a couple of suggestions anyway, good luck

Last edited by GazJenno; 24 February 2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 25 February 2019, 04:20 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by GazJenno View Post
Did you do a boost leak test? I took my FMIC pipe work off once to do a job, put it all back on, all clamps tight but the car just wasn't boosting as expected. I made a tube I could connect at turbo inlet with a Schroeder valve on it, pressurised the system to 1bar and had leaks from several of the hose joiners even know the clamps were tight as well as a leak at the throttle body gasket. It was causing weird pulsations with the boost and not reaching the previous peak pressure. Had to reseat all the hoses and tighten up again and fit new TB gasket. I've also had weak spool which was caused by a crap up-pipe gasket and another time by a cracked exhaust manifold crossover pipe which wasn't noticeably leaking at idle but clearly was when pressures built up in the exhaust when driving hard... just a couple of suggestions anyway, good luck
many thanks for that, great suggestions. I'll be getting a boost leak test, but the up-pipe gasket story and exhaust crossover sounds a bit like what I'm seeing. I know they had a lot of trouble with exhaust nuts getting the turbo in.
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Old 25 February 2019, 05:31 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by davoid View Post
many thanks for that, great suggestions. I'll be getting a boost leak test, but the up-pipe gasket story and exhaust crossover sounds a bit like what I'm seeing. I know they had a lot of trouble with exhaust nuts getting the turbo in.
all new nuts bolts and studs and gaskets should of been used when fitting
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Old 26 February 2019, 09:31 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by davoid View Post
I don't know enough about mapping to know whether duty cycles could be seen but I'd have thought if that were an obvious issue he'd have spotted it.

Next thing is to check for boost leak. If that's clear I'm not sure whether to get a harvey up pipe or look for a vf28. Dynos I've seen for them look considerably better than mine in spool, boost and torque.

How do I test the actuator? I have a bike pump with gauge so might be possible. I've not yet tried boosting without actuator connected. That's tomorrow.
My 380's were at 90% DC at around 330hp, Paul Blamire advised 550's as he reasoned, get some cold weather and they could max out. that was on a VF34.
Trev
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Old 26 February 2019, 10:45 AM
  #42  
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With all respect, there is no way of getting 330bhp (crank guesstimate) from 380cc injectors at 90%. You'd be very lucky to get near to 300bhp @ 100%. It's a simple physics calculation - there won't be enough fuel supplied to burn the amount of oxygen required to produce that power figure.
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Old 26 February 2019, 11:11 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by TECHNOPUG View Post
With all respect, there is no way of getting 330bhp (crank guesstimate) from 380cc injectors at 90%. You'd be very lucky to get near to 300bhp @ 100%. It's a simple physics calculation - there won't be enough fuel supplied to burn the amount of oxygen required to produce that power figure.
my newage 03 wagon @ powerstation made 295hp without issue and as I said it wasn't until we were around 330hp @Zen the changes were made to 550's. Now you can theorise all you wish but those are facts.
Trev

just to confirm they were 380's.

Last edited by trevsjwood; 26 February 2019 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 26 February 2019, 11:35 AM
  #44  
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Rolling roads measure power at the wheels. The 330bhp crank figure is at best a calculation using assumed transmission losses, at worst a guess. It should also be considered what can be produced once on a RR pull doesn't relate to what can actually be replicated, regularly without destruction outside of that controlled environment

Whereas fuel quantity / flow required for any given power is a mathematical equation.
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Old 26 February 2019, 04:24 PM
  #45  
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Technopug. You're going off topic with this and without any real reason.... but pretty sure if you do the math... 380cc/min from 4 injectors provides enough energy for 1096HP.... after thermal losses, pumping losses etc you'll be looking at 25-30% of that so could have anywhere between 275-365hp usable HP. Not saying you're wrong (330bhp would be a push) but you've gone down a pointless tangent with lots of unknowns... same as the RR argument assuming transmission losses. Although they do estimate transmission losses they do it in a pretty clever/accurate way.
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Old 26 February 2019, 04:42 PM
  #46  
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Going off tangent is telling the OP that 380cc injectors @ 90% duty will make 330 hp....
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Old 26 February 2019, 05:09 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by TECHNOPUG View Post
Going off tangent is telling the OP that 380cc injectors @ 90% duty will make 330 hp....
no I offered it up as the OP had concerns that he might have an issue at under 300hp.
Paul Blamire identified the level I was at was not safe.
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Old 28 February 2019, 09:49 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by trevsjwood View Post
no I offered it up as the OP had concerns that he might have an issue at under 300hp.
Paul Blamire identified the level I was at was not safe.
Trev
I think what is off tangent, though I don't mind a spot of the tangential occasionally, is that there is (almost) no way injectors, which were not changed, would give a dyno output like that.
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Old 28 February 2019, 12:02 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by davoid View Post
I think what is off tangent, though I don't mind a spot of the tangential occasionally, is that there is (almost) no way injectors, which were not changed, would give a dyno output like that.
Agreed. You only have to look at the boost plot to know it's not the injectors. The boost control is poor, and you have less boost, and later onset of boost. All bad things!

Did you check pre-load on the actuator? You probably want about 2 or 3mm pre-load at least, possibly a good deal more

If you have a boost gauge AND you are very careful with your right foot, you can try driving with the vacuum pipe disconnected from the actuator, which will in theory not limit the boost at all. This means you can check that turbo is capable of providing the boost required, and issue is purely with boost control piping etc (e.g. is pill still in the pipe?)
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Old 28 February 2019, 12:05 PM
  #50  
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Agreed.

These are all things your mapper should have checked or explained to you. Whoever mapped it shouldn't have left it like that, unless they didn't understand the potential causes. I'd love to find out who mapped it!
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Old 28 February 2019, 12:38 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by BrownPantsRacing View Post
Agreed.

These are all things your mapper should have checked or explained to you. Whoever mapped it shouldn't have left it like that, unless they didn't understand the potential causes. I'd love to find out who mapped it!
my money is on dungkhan haha

strange how the inlet temp is 17 degrees cooler than the ambient?
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Old 02 March 2019, 12:00 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Tidgy View Post
my money is on dungkhan haha

strange how the inlet temp is 17 degrees cooler than the ambient?
Does sound like the work of dynamite Duncan.
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Old 05 March 2019, 10:10 AM
  #53  
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I could try putting the old actuator and piping back on though I guess I'd need to adjust it myself, which I've not done before. But, as I say, at lift-off following acceleration it does give a pwssshhh sound (which previous one didn't, oddly), which suggests to me something going from fully closed to open, rather than something that's crept partially open or is partially open. Mechanics checking for boost leaks and exhaust leaks today. I did clean the maf sensor, which was dirty, but this has had no effect.
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Old 13 March 2019, 11:15 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by LiamB View Post
What injectors are you on? A quick spot the difference between your spec and mine makes me think that that's the route cause. Might also be the reason why the mapper hasn't gone for more boost as the standard WRX injectors won't deliver enough fuel to keep the AFR healthy at higher boost (remember that the hybrid will be providing a higher mass flow rate of air than the standard TD04 will at the same boost, hence why boost has been turned down). I'm on 550cc STI pinks and it made something like 304bhp and 303lbft @ 1.3 bar.

I remember another guy on here who had the same spec as you and got circa 285bhp and was told that the injectors were maxed out.
What are your other mods? Hybrid TD04, pink injectors, what kind of exhaust (full exhaust or just DP? catted or not?)? Are you on stock WRX IC?

remember that the hybrid will be providing a higher mass flow rate of air than the standard TD04 will at the same boost, hence why boost has been turned down
I remeber that Andy Forrest said something opposite about his hybrids. He recommended running them on 1,3-1,4 boost to achieve full potential.
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Old 22 March 2019, 07:32 AM
  #55  
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Did the op get to the bottom of this?
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Old 03 April 2019, 04:34 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by uxon View Post
What are your other mods? Hybrid TD04, pink injectors, what kind of exhaust (full exhaust or just DP? catted or not?)? Are you on stock WRX IC?


I remeber that Andy Forrest said something opposite about his hybrids. He recommended running them on 1,3-1,4 boost to achieve full potential.
Other mods: high vol fuel pump, panel filter, 200 cell sports cat and fujitsubo exhaust. That's it really.

Original map was for 1.3bar max and that's what the new one was mapped to as well, except boost never reached 1.3bar. Mapper didn't turn boost down.

Still not got to the bottom of the problem. Ignition issues sorted and idle air control valve issues sorted. Haven't taken it back yet to mapper. Still undecided whether to spend on a harvey up-pipe.

It might be going a little better now, but hard to say. It's possible there was some crap in the up-pipe following fitting. Maybe one of the up-pipe gaskets was not a good fit. I dunno. Pain in the ****. For about 800 i was expecting something more than just an extra 20bhp at the top end.
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Old 03 April 2019, 04:39 PM
  #57  
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Also no boost or exhaust leaks detected.
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Old 03 April 2019, 09:28 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by tjmatt View Post
Agreed. You only have to look at the boost plot to know it's not the injectors. The boost control is poor, and you have less boost, and later onset of boost. All bad things!

Did you check pre-load on the actuator? You probably want about 2 or 3mm pre-load at least, possibly a good deal more

If you have a boost gauge AND you are very careful with your right foot, you can try driving with the vacuum pipe disconnected from the actuator, which will in theory not limit the boost at all. This means you can check that turbo is capable of providing the boost required, and issue is purely with boost control piping etc (e.g. is pill still in the pipe?)
Did you try any of this? Given that turbo appears to flow well enough to give a power increase at top end, really we need to understand why you can't get target boost. Once you can it might just be fine! It would be nice to prove that boost can be attained if you leave vacuum off waste gate. If not actuator maybe faulty or mal adjusted. If that boosts fine, then maybe a 3 port solenoid would help. Or checking size of restrictor pill in boost pipework and checking its still there.
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Old 03 April 2019, 09:38 PM
  #59  
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Just read that you changed over boost/vacuum pipes with the new actuator/turbo. Did the restrictor pill remain in the correct pipe? It's key to get boost control working on the oe boost solenoid. There should be a little bulge in the pipe, near the compressor nipple.
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Old 04 April 2019, 09:02 AM
  #60  
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if thats the case then its a pretty pi%% poor show if the mapper didn't realise / check the boost pill was missing??

any any mechanic for that matter.....
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