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So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.

Old 09 July 2019, 10:26 AM
  #5011  
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Originally Posted by Dr Hu View Post
Errr.. by not having Free Movement from the EU..... one of the tenants of the Tory Policy on leaving Europe

Felix - I truly feel for you - the Police are having to pick up the pieces of a 'European Experiment' in free movement - with a drastically reduced budget.
Anybody who things everything is all fine and dandy in the UK is living in a dream world.... or not anywhere near a Urban environment.
Pretty much every single person wants to stop (particularly) eastern europeans coming in due to the troubles caused, as highlighted by Felix - but there are a few die hard remainers on here living in a dream world with a blindfold on... or are rich enough for it not to affect them.
Look at the success of the Brexit Party - ever wonder why? - the biggest party to rise in what 2 months! I know a few on here will jump in - racist this, racist that.... but its what most of the normal people want, and their experiences of what they see on the street day in and day out.... and they are sick of it - the UK has really gone down the sh1tter in the last 20yrs - oh look! pretty much once the Maastricht Treaty policies kicked in with Free Movement from 2004 and 2014 for Romania & Bulgaria.

The only way any of this was EU experiment ever going to work was with overnight full tax harmonisation, benefit harmonisation and currency harmonisation, to minimise huge benefit/currency/people migration - which pretty much mean all the EU nations independent sovereignty disappears pronto and we all become one great EU nation - as you can imagine that will (probably) never happen in our lifetimes so we are left with this unholy mess,,,,
And they wonder why populist parties are on the rise - they are trying to shoehorn together nations that don't really want to be lumped together, and have massive disparities in wages/living standards etc
Its a right ****-show tbh...
The police are not dealing with an EU Experiment, they are dealing with huge cuts to the force, brought about by our domestic administrations!

As for the rise of the Brexit party, it's mostly fired by the right wing press. I know people who spout rubbish about immigrants who have never met one, let alone been a victim of one! The areas with highest immigration were not generally Leave voting, the areas that mostly voted Leave were areas with the lowest immigration! If that doesn't tell you something, then...........
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Old 09 July 2019, 05:46 PM
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We might have passport controls that anyone can walk through, but we need some sort of system like Estas where we can check anyone that comes in and deny access if necessary. The EU have free movement which is why we could not stop convicted murderer Arnis Zalkalns from walking into the country and then going on to kill a 14 year old. Even if you have a caution on PNC you can be denied access to the USA.

I'm not saying that the EU is responsible for all crimes, but their policy on free movement is making it too easy for criminals from the EU to operate here. And they all flock to the UK due to all the benefits they will receive for themselves or others with them. That's why all the non-EU migrants were camped at Calais waiting to get into the UK rather than staying in France, Germany, Italy etc etc
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Old 09 July 2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Felix. View Post
We might have passport controls that anyone can walk through, but we need some sort of system like Estas where we can check anyone that comes in and deny access if necessary. The EU have free movement which is why we could not stop convicted murderer Arnis Zalkalns from walking into the country and then going on to kill a 14 year old. Even if you have a caution on PNC you can be denied access to the USA.

I'm not saying that the EU is responsible for all crimes, but their policy on free movement is making it too easy for criminals from the EU to operate here. And they all flock to the UK due to all the benefits they will receive for themselves or others with them. That's why all the non-EU migrants were camped at Calais waiting to get into the UK rather than staying in France, Germany, Italy etc etc
The EU Schengen zone is introducing the ETIAS system which is equivalent to the US ESTA scheme. The UK will not be introducing it as a non Schengen member. The UK could have refused entry to Zalkalns in accordance with EU rules on freedom of movement, but chose not to apply that rule in that case! The UKs lack of a national ID and registration scheme makes it hard to keep track of criminals of any nationality, including British, and makes it difficult to enforce rules on freedom of movement. These are all problems the UK could address if it wanted to, but for whatever reason they choose not to!

It's easy to blame the EU for all these problems in the country, but who are you going to blame when we've left and the problems don't go away?
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Old 09 July 2019, 06:09 PM
  #5014  
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Originally Posted by Felix. View Post
We might have passport controls that anyone can walk through, but we need some sort of system like Estas where we can check anyone that comes in and deny access if necessary. The EU have free movement which is why we could not stop convicted murderer Arnis Zalkalns from walking into the country and then going on to kill a 14 year old. Even if you have a caution on PNC you can be denied access to the USA.

I'm not saying that the EU is responsible for all crimes, but their policy on free movement is making it too easy for criminals from the EU to operate here. And they all flock to the UK due to all the benefits they will receive for themselves or others with them. That's why all the non-EU migrants were camped at Calais waiting to get into the UK rather than staying in France, Germany, Italy etc etc
He was released without charge, so obviously the police didn't think there was enough evidence against him (I'm not saying he didn't, but you cannot say he did.) Also, UK immigration was unaware of his conviction, and that has nothing to do with our EU membership. He was convicted (and released) before Latvia joined the EU, but the law governing the sharing of such information was not brought in until 2012. Even then, the law only requires Latvia to tell the UK about offences committed by British citizens in Latvia.

So if we were not in the EU and required them to fill in some sort of visa, how exactly would that help? I imagine it may even make things worse, as we would have no access whatsoever to Latvian criminal records. If we actually took the time to request any criminal records of foreign nationals, without immediate and extensive access, the process would be become very protracted indeed. ESTA, which seems to be a popular poster boy for Brexiteers, only requires that you answer the question, no check is made. If you answer yes, you get denied and referred to the US Embassy for a full visa check. If you say no, it's granted, so like our Latvian friend, in they come.

Ironically, if you wish to prevent people like Zalkalns entering the UK and committing heinous crimes, then the answer is closer co-operation with EU member states, not leaving!
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Old 09 July 2019, 07:12 PM
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UsA doesnt need checks on migrants to stop mass shootings , on a daily basis !
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Old 10 July 2019, 01:09 PM
  #5016  
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I have Romanians one side, Bulgarians the other side , Serbians over the road and more Romanians down the street and there is no trouble what so ever, the only PITA is when the Turks or the Italians or the Germans or the (insert nationality here) have a wedding somewhere and all drive through the village in convoy beeping horns.
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Old 10 July 2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Wurzel View Post
I have Romanians one side, Bulgarians the other side , Serbians over the road and more Romanians down the street and there is no trouble what so ever, the only PITA is when the Turks or the Italians or the Germans or the (insert nationality here) have a wedding somewhere and all drive through the village in convoy beeping horns.
...or someone wins a football match
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Old 11 July 2019, 07:41 AM
  #5018  
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Originally Posted by Mr Fuji View Post
He was released without charge, so obviously the police didn't think there was enough evidence against him (I'm not saying he didn't, but you cannot say he did.) Also, UK immigration was unaware of his conviction, and that has nothing to do with our EU membership. He was convicted (and released) before Latvia joined the EU, but the law governing the sharing of such information was not brought in until 2012. Even then, the law only requires Latvia to tell the UK about offences committed by British citizens in Latvia....
She was murdered in 2014 and Latvia joined in 2004. The prime suspect hung himself 2 days after the body was found, so being released without charge will be because the forensics from the victim will not have been returned yet. The case now stands that the Latvian would have been charged with the murder if he had not hung himself.

The ESTA system must work as I have had people moaning at me saying that "I have ruined their chance of holiday as they have been refused access to the USA" following a conviction.

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Old 12 July 2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BMWhere? View Post
...or someone wins a football match
Yeah that too
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Old 14 July 2019, 05:34 PM
  #5020  
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Hoho

the brexiteers favourite

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48980408
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Old 15 July 2019, 08:09 AM
  #5021  
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Originally Posted by BMWhere? View Post
The EU Schengen zone is introducing the ETIAS system which is equivalent to the US ESTA scheme. The UK will not be introducing it as a non Schengen member. The UK could have refused entry to Zalkalns in accordance with EU rules on freedom of movement, but chose not to apply that rule in that case! The UKs lack of a national ID and registration scheme makes it hard to keep track of criminals of any nationality, including British, and makes it difficult to enforce rules on freedom of movement. These are all problems the UK could address if it wanted to, but for whatever reason they choose not to!

It's easy to blame the EU for all these problems in the country, but who are you going to blame when we've left and the problems don't go away?

Indeed, as we’re not part of Schengen (although at times during the Blair era checks were so non existent that we may as well have been) and have natural geographic boarders we can and should be a lot more proactive at checking and vetting entrants. Sadly any attempt (such as Blunket’s) at improving ID based intelligence was totally thrown out by the protests from Orwell fanatics.

This happened on my doorstep https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...ngham-43755038 (and it’s not the only incident).

Really we cannot allow open boarders to countries that have such a different level of managing and incarcerating criminals. We have enough of a issue dealing with our own scum.

Part of my reason for moving...pretty much weekly we get these bunch travelling up from there to our area at 4am trying car doors and generally being a pain in the **** with little deterrent or recourse. I’ve had enough of it.

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Old 15 July 2019, 04:24 PM
  #5022  
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Speaking with a copper friend who wears "balaclavas" a lot commented on his job in London recently as we discussed the crime rates. The stuff that does not necessarily hit the news is the most frightening. East EU and far east non-EU organised gangs love it here.

If they commit crimes in their country of origin then the retribution is swift, likely to be long and very arduous. Not so if you commit the same crime in the UK - quids in and you still get fed and watered. Belmarsh is not like a gulag in Mongolia in January. If they never got here in the first place due to a VISA/Points entry system they would be unlikely to be here.

I am surprised the whole Remoaner/Exiteer as not run it's course and the Boris/C Hunt debate as not taken over for the suede elbow pads or "Swampy" types.

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Old 15 July 2019, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BMWhere? View Post
If people were shown the corrections to the fake news they had seen, the problem might not be so great!
The creators of the fake news should also be held to account, this stuff is put out their and already does the damage before platforms like facebook can possibly react!
Tell that to the Flat Earthers
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Old 15 July 2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by The Trooper 1815 View Post
If they never got here in the first place due to a VISA/Points entry system they would be unlikely to be here.
If they weren't here committing crimes, then someone else would be.

Organised crime is driven by demand, be it drugs, stolen goods, prostitution or whatever, as long as there is a demand, then the market will be filled by whoever is able to supply. Immigration has no impact, if crime is allowed to exist then someone will by committing it, domestic or foreign.

With better border checks, you may be able to keep out some criminals, but border forces, like the police, need more officers in order to do their jobs effectively and that needs more money!

The money from leaving the EU is never going to help this or any other problem in the UK. For a start, we need a new trade department in Whitehall as this is currently done for us by the EU. Then we need a new air certification authority as this is currently done by the EU. Then we need a new body for Nuclear safety, currently done by the EU. Then there is medical equipment and drugs certification authority, which is currently done by the EU. There are dozens of things that are centrally regulated by the EU which creates great savings for all EU members as they don't have to individually have dozens of agencies in every country doing the same job! The entire Brexit dividend will be gone simply replacing all the centralised authorities from the EU and probably cost us a lot more to boot! There won't be any extra money for the health service, police, borders, education, social housing or anything else.

Brexit will not address any of the real problems in the UK, so who are you going to blame when Brexit doesn't fix anything?
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Old 15 July 2019, 06:39 PM
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Brexit will not address any of the real problems in the UK, so who are you going to blame when Brexit doesn't fix anything?


Wishful thinking would have me believing that we can finally hold our own politicians to account for their gross ineptitude. In reality they’ll probably slither out of any accountability just like they usually do.

Until we we start throwing politicians in prison for breaking manifestos and ‘promises’, there is little deterrent.
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Old 15 July 2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ALi-B View Post

Wishful thinking would have me believing that we can finally hold our own politicians to account for their gross ineptitude. In reality they’ll probably slither out of any accountability just like they usually do.

Until we we start throwing politicians in prison for breaking manifestos and ‘promises’, there is little deterrent.
We could hold the politicians to account now instead of letting them pass on the blame to the EU! That is our power as the voting public, yet all we do is moan about them and then vote for the same two parties who will never really change anything because they benefit from the status quo!

Brexit is a far too simplistic populist answer to a much more complicated problem. We need to stop peddling easy fixes and passing blame on others and start actually addressing the real problems which ultimately means changing the ultra capitalist low taxation Thatcherite economy that has blighted the UK for decades. We need a more socially responsible free market economy which places community and social values above economic gain. Sweden is one of the happiest and wealthiest countries in the world despite high taxes and high levels of immigration, maybe we should be looking at what they're doing!
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Old 15 July 2019, 10:26 PM
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[QUOTE=BMWhere?;12056850]If they weren't here committing crimes, then someone else would be.

Organised crime is driven by demand, be it drugs, stolen goods, prostitution or whatever, as long as there is a demand, then the market will be filled by whoever is able to supply. Immigration has no impact, if crime is allowed to exist then someone will by committing it, domestic or foreign.

With better border checks, you may be able to keep out some criminals, but border forces, like the police, need more officers in order to do their jobs effectively and that needs more money!

The money from leaving the EU is never going to help this or any other problem in the UK. For a start, we need a new trade department in Whitehall as this is currently done for us by the EU. Then we need a new air certification authority as this is currently done by the EU. Then we need a new body for Nuclear safety, currently done by the EU. Then there is medical equipment and drugs certification authority, which is currently done by the EU. There are dozens of things that are centrally regulated by the EU which creates great savings for all EU members as they don't have to individually have dozens of agencies in every country doing the same job! The entire Brexit dividend will be gone simply replacing all the centralised authorities from the EU and probably cost us a lot more to boot! There won't be any extra money for the health service, police, borders, education, social housing or anything else.

Brexit will not address any of the real problems in the UK, so who are you going to blame when Brexit doesn't fix anything?[/QUOTE

But if they cannot get here then no crime by them - no?
How do we know BREXIT is going to increase crime? If it stops east and far eastern mafia style gangs then surely that is a bonus?
Or any of the problems people are predicting?

Anyone remember the Millenium bug.

Last edited by The Trooper 1815; 15 July 2019 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 16 July 2019, 08:11 AM
  #5028  
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Forgotten what this thread is about.lol
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Old 16 July 2019, 08:28 AM
  #5029  
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Are we not due to make it easier for non EU to come in the future, instead

I can't imagine sharing of resources on crims is liable to get Better after brexit either

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Old 16 July 2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by The Trooper 1815 View Post
But if they cannot get here then no crime by them - no?
How do we know BREXIT is going to increase crime? If it stops east and far eastern mafia style gangs then surely that is a bonus?
Or any of the problems people are predicting?

Anyone remember the Millenium bug.
Sure, someone who is not here cannot commit a crime here, but someone who is here will still commit that crime. The problem is there is little threat of being caught for a crime, not who is committing it.

I don't think crime will increase post Brexit, it just won't improve by reducing immigrants!

Blaming crime on foreigners was at the core of the **** propaganda and has remained a key argument for the far right ever since, but there is simply no evidence to link crime rates to immigration rates. Crime will be committed by anyone, domestic or immigrant, take away the immigrants and there will be more domestic criminals, crime rates will not change!
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Old 17 July 2019, 10:29 AM
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So the new EU President was elected yesterday (wow, that almost sounds democratic!), and for the first time is a woman and also relatively young, so quite a positive and progressive outlook for the new EU commission - shame the UK won't be around to help shape the future!
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