jason77

'lo All,

I know alot of peeps (myself included) disable the ABS for the winter (pull the fuse)

What are the legal implications of this?
If you were involved in an accident (not as a result of doing this), and the police had found that you had disabled the ABS.. can they do owt?

Basically a mate has had an accident and totalled his car. (Car slid on ice at a bend into the path of an oncoming vehicle)
During the conversations with the police, they found that he has pulled the fuse and disabled the ABS. The policeman has now grabbed onto that saying it's illegal and he's made his car unsafe. (We think that last bit is pish)

My thinking is that cars don't need to have ABS, it's an option a lot of cars come fitted with, so what's the problem?
However I can see the thinking along the lines of, the car is designed to have ABS, so you disabling it modifying the car, thus possibly causing the car not to be as safe as it could be?

Your thoughts please everyone?
Anyone in the force that can give a definate answer?

Thanks for all the forthcoming comments.

J

Bartop

Possibly not illegal but I'm sure the insurance would be void..

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Cars fitted with ABS must have it fully operational in order for it to pass the MOT. With it disabled the car would fail the MOT. And based on those grounds it would be considered un-roadworthy.

The only way I know to circumvent this technicality in terms of "modifying", is to completely remove the whole ABS system.

wwp8

your mate had the ABS disabled and STILL lost control on ice!
so why bother?

fast bloke

both your mate and the copper must know he was going to fast for the conditions.... dangerous driving?

jason77

nah, they've discussed this and is looking at driving without due care and attention.
But he's worried that they're gonna try and do him for the ABS thing... unrelated but the coppper said he'd be takign a look it it. They've impounded the car for now while they do their checks.

RB5-Black

who was it jase ?

jason77

MrT - Cowdenbeath to Kingseat road, had just come out of the kink a wee bit b4 before the bridge over the motorway coming from cowdenbeath side. Must have been a wee bit of momentum wanting to pull it sideways.
He was doing about 65/70.
Front end of the car just darted out a couple of feet just as he was about to pass the car coming the other way.
Drivers corner onto the oncoming vehicle driver corner, the other vehicle ended up in the field (right way up no rolling involved), their car totalled - 3 people in it no injuries at all, his car had that corner suspension corner ripped off, spun about 4 times like a pinball down the road wrecking every panel on it.
He closed the road for a while and apparently made the courier.

Well shaken up by it, p1ssed off too.

J

RB5-Black

jings

That's not good, glad to hear EVERYONE is ok. I'll give you a call !

Craig.

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

Sorry to hear about your mate, and sorry for the thread hijack, but I was thinking about this the other day, as everyone one here seems to think the ABS is so ****...

Could you get away with putting a broken fuse in, as then you could argue that it just 'broke' and they can't prove that you've intentionally replaced it?

jason77

well they've impounded the car while investigate it, so canane get near it to chuck a broken fuse in.

However that is the best idea.. if you are planning to do this, chuck a broken fuse in and play ignorant i guess.

J

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

That would be the best case. And plead ignorance...don't even mention the abs...let them find it out, then explain yourself

From what it appears, the bloke opened his mouth and said the fuse had been pulled. It's an admission that the vehicle is not road-worthy

It's like saying to the police that you took the catalyst off, or have bald tyres. In a normal situation where you were "pulled" you'd be given a defect notice and told to fix it and get a new MOT at your own cost. But in an accident, it's taken alot more seriously.

Defective brakes as the police will see it (no ABS) will lead to a court prosecution. Which the maximum fine is £1000 and disqualification. First time offences usually is about £100-200 plus Licence endorsemnt. But the matter that the ABS was intentionally disabled wouldn't be taken lightly.

nyscooby

iTrader: (12)

Put a blown fuse in the ABS slot. If you crash, theres the reason, Non-illegal ABS failure.

Brit_in_Japan

Slightly off subject, but what do people think the wisdom is in disabling the ABS? I would say it's an urban myth that pulling the ABS fuse in winter will result in safer motoring.

I have read on here people complaining that some earlier Impreza's had ABS which virtually disabled the brakes in icy conditions. I haven't driven the type of Impreza's cited so I can't comment on whether that is accurate or not.

What I do know is that research has shown that cars stop sooner and with more control (permitting the car to be steered) when the ABS is functioning. This research was done in Sweden, I think Volvo were involved because they contributed a fleet of vehicles for the research. I've posted the link to the report before and will do so again if anyone is interested.

Even the most skillful driver cannot match the 4 channel ABS braking on modern vehicles, let alone beat it.

The only time a car without ABS can be brought to a stop faster than one with is when there is fresh snow on the ground, the benefit being the locked wheel can build up a wedge of snow infront of the locked wheels, so aiding braking.

But in reality during the winter, how often do people drive in fresh snow, as opposed to compacted snow, slush, ice? On those surfaces ABS is more effective. On balance, it's better to leave the ABS functioing as it was intended to do.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

The Scoobie's ABS system is honestly a very poor system. It leaves a lot to be desired in terms of it's true effectiveness in on poor road surfaces and grip conditions. Especially wet uneven roads - it's operation and the extreme at which it removes braking effort to all the wheels is highly alarming. And in more cases I would like to mention for comfort, it has got me into more trouble than getting me out of it (simply put in most cases...could not stop (on a wet/damp road)... and had nowhere to steer to safety).

But..I will agree that pulling the fuse because you think you can stop better quicker and still control the car safely is very questionable....we are our own worst judge. If you haven't been taught or experineced and gained skill in controlling cars then simply don't do it on base of what people on a BBS says. (For the record though, I do pull the fuse in snow and black ice - 8 years of non-abs motoring and a skid pan and lots of off-road driving has taught me plenty ), but only on the scoob. The Honda, the Toyota, the BMW's, the Vauxhalls, still have theirs active, and IMO work far better than scoobs, which just seems to completly remove all braking effort regardless of grip - when there actually is grip...but somewhat limited.

It's down to experience and skill, of driving and controlling non-abs cars in emergency situations. If you cannot do that, then don't pull the fuse.

It is known (can't find the source, sorry) that a human can out perform ABS in the dry and wet. But this human is a racing driver...and has had plenty of test runs and practice beforehand in trying to beat the ABS. So in a one-off situation a good ABS system will win hands down, racing driver or not, wet road or dry road.

Also the principal of steer-to-avoid..which is the whole point of ABS - it does sacrifice overall stopping distance in favour of retaining steering control. Which is great if you have an escape route to steer towards, however sods law states otherwise

Now I'm going to sound like a I'm on the goverment's side here...but if everybody didn't drive so fast on damp, wet or icy roads, relying on gritters, and concentrated on the road ahead and took into account how little grip wet and icy roads provide. Then there would be no need for ABS. I mean the original topic of this thread mentions 65-70 in icy conditions, round a bend onto a bridge..FFS that is taking the p155 IMO...30mph is far too fast in most cases. Blatant lack of due care an attention to road conditions. Because a road sign says you can do 60mph it doesn't mean you can actually travel at 60mph without crashing.

I will admit that in the cases where the scoob's ABS has got me into trouble...the intiating factor was down to me not reading the road ahead enough and travelling too fast. For instance, a car waiting at a junction. Asumming they will give way and not pull out, and continue driving at speed limit (40mph in the last instance) takes far too much for granted (i.e the other driver), and then to your suprise the car pulls out infront of you. Or another situtaion, going round a fast slightly blind bend, you don't expect to run into a car straddling the white lines. Most of the time, it never happens, which is why we get compliacent. And it's when we least expect it that it will catch us out.

It's a way of thinking that needs to adopted and maintained whilst driving. If you can judge a potential danger you will slow down...just incase. Then the unexpected never happens

hades

I was with you until that last sentence. "The un-expected never happens" ? Yep, and pigs fly. By driving suitably for the conditions, anticipating, allowing for others to do stupid things etc, you can adapt so that you have a much higher chance of avoiding trouble if the unexpected does happen. But it will still happen at some point, no-one can expect everything that happens.

However, I agree that 65-70 over a bridge on a corner in icy conditions sounds a trifle foolish.

As for the issue of disabling ABS, if you really feel you need to do it, a blown fuse and keeping your mouth shut seems the best option.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I didn't mean in every circumstance - my name's not Mystic Meg LOL

jason77

TBH it's a kink instead of a corner, approx30 degrees, with full vision before and after the corner, the bridge is about 1/2 mile up the road (you'd be going oni it)
The conditions were'nt mega icy, just beginning to go that way, so i can see how it is misjudged.
For the 'suspected' conditions, the speed was all that bad, can be/is taken 20/30 mph more during dry conditions.

Anyway not trying to say 'don't call him a pish driver, stop slaggin my mate' just trying to show that usually a really safe corner/area, so just surprised at how it happened.

Yes he was a bit of a muppet saying to the police about the ABS fuse, i don't know how it came about, but he told them anyway. Unfortunately nowt he can do about that. Also it is a first offence for him, no points or nowt.
I can see the point of him 'braking' the ABS, thus possibly making the car unsafe.
Hope they don't **** him over for it, again this issue wasn't related to the incident, so i don't know how they can go to town on him. It certainly isn't an issue with that car anymore.

Cheers all for the comments, thoughts.

J

dingy

How can they do you for not having ABS....

Its not on the MOT so its not legal.

Vipa

I'm with you there.,...

My old Mondeo had a button to disable the traction control which they suggested you do in the winter and I'm sure past cars have had buttons to turn off the ABS.

Paul

dingy

highway code is based on a car with drums on all 4 corners and no assistance for a start

bluepolarbear

That is true where the road offers uniform braking across all four wheels which is often not the case in the real world. A modern ABS system will will work independantly on all four wheels something no driver can do with a single pedal. As an extreme example - imagine a road where the left side wheels are on ice and the right side wheels on tarmac. The ABS will stop the car in a straight line, no driver will without a) spinning or b) taking miles to stop it.

IMHO anyone whose driving style involves use of ABS should be looking at improving their skill level rather rely on it more by disabling the ABS.

Harry_Boy

Audi Quattros used to, on the basis that (as mentioned before) disabling the ABS to lock the wheels in fresh snow and loose gravel helps build up a wedge under the tyres, which reduces the braking distance.

acf8181

iTrader: (1)

seems a good place for my first post...i've just recently started reading this forum as sooner or later i will deffo own a scoob and want to learn as much as i can beforehand. i currently drive the most unreliable vw golf vr6 on the planet, and also have a £90 mkII golf gti that i end up using more as its more reliable!

anyway, back to subject....i've found this thread very informative so far, especially ALi-B's long post. what year did they improve the ABS on scoob's? its most likely i'll end up getting a bugeye, is the system better on these than on a classic?

i can't deal with poor ABS again...i used to own a '00 punto sporting (embarrassing i know) and its ABS was quite frankly damgerous in poor conditions, and potentially fatal in snowy icy conditions. what was wrong with the system on the punto (and i presume the scoobs) is that it reacted too much when the wheels locked up, and wouldn't allow any locking at all (the fastest way to stop is actually to have the wheel starting to lock). now this wasn't such a big deal in the dry, but there were situations in the wet where it would back the brakes off almost completely...so you had no retardation. in the snow this was a constant thing, you NEVER had any brakes....i would litterly pootle alaong at 10mph and use the handbrake to stop. not to mention that the car had very unstable handling...snap understeer!!! (it would suddenly go straight as a die for the scenary). now, at this point i should point out that i hold a nat A racing licence and have spent five full days on silverstone race schools intensive tuition course prior to competeing. so i'm not unfarmiliar with cars moving around under me, and threshold/cadence braking. i immediately, after first driving the car in the snow, realised i had to try and disable this sytem somehow, so pulled the fuse out. unfortunately fiat, in their wisdom, had decided to set the bias very far towards the rear...so it was locking rears too easily and stepping out, too much to be safe to drive it like that. but, heres the interesting one...i did a test, in the dry, on a business park and even with it trying to swap ends under braking i could stop quicker, by over a car length, without the abs than with it from 60mph!

Anyway, i've rattled on a bit now...hope you're all awake. just to finish, the abs on the golf vr6 is much much better, it allows a fair degree of wheel lock up but is still not ideal on snow, glad i have the mkII with no abs and no pas for those conditions.

oh, one more thing....if you do disconnect the abs you're supposed to declare it to your insurance company, in the same way that you have to declare if you replace the airbag wheel with an aftermarket one.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, But ABS IS included on the MOT.

If your car is equipped with ABS and it isn't functioning, then it will fail. The only way round this is the complete removal of whole ABS system (if it's not fitted it can't fail).

acf8181

iTrader: (1)

yep, spot on....my girlfriends vw polo just failed the MOT on this (the light had been coming on itermitantly, and sods law dictated that it did when it was in the tetsing station), you can't just remove the bulb as well as they check it goes through the start sequence. of course cars without abs don't fail tho.

JackClark

If anyone wants to demo ABS faults, try the hill going down to Amersham from Beaconsfield. There's a bump about 10 meters from the roundabout that will trigger the ABS and leave you struggling to stop in time for the junction. It's lethal if you're not ready for it.

Jerome

My MY93 WRX import had no ABS. Although I never locked up under an emergency, I did have a couple of heartstopping moments. Considering the tiny fraction of UK driving that is done on fresh snow, disabling the ABS is pointless. If any car I owned had poor ABS, I'd either replace the car or upgrade the brakes.

IIRC, the Ur Quattro had a switch to turn of the ABS because the LSD was incompatible with the ABS - you could have one or the other on. Eventually this was overcome with later models with which you couldn't turn the ABS off anymore.

Wouldn't putting a dead fuse in the ABS slot cause the ABS light on the dash to come on? This could also put you on dodgy ground with the insurance in the event of a claim, I'd imagine. Also, I'd be amazed if removing the fuse didn't totally invalidate the insurance (if they found out).

I would also imagine it very difficult to get insurance on a car where you had removed the ABS system entirely.

mightyyid

I would say the biggest issue is not so much the validity of disabling ABS for the cops, more foe the insurance company. The police report, which the insurance company will follow up on, would say that the ABS was disabled. And I am sure the insurance company will say this has invalidated the insurance as when they rpice a car they look at many things, safety being one of them. The insurance company could easily say we priced the car on being roadworthy which means active ABS. You chose to disable, you invalidated the safety aspect (regardless of whether it makes a difference or not - like saying 100mph on a clear motorway is safe etc etc) and therefore invalidate your insurance.

We all know some insurance companies can be a pain. Do you honestly think one will pay out when the driver has knowingly disabled a safety feature that has been proven to save lives and indeed is now compulsory on all cars sold in the UK? I do think this will have a massive impact...

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Well, any insurance company always looks to find a good excuse to avoid paying out, so the odds are on that they'll play up and refuse to pay.