Frustration with Britain's beloved judicial system
03 July 2000, 06:15 PM
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Not entirely Scooby related, but I feel I need to share this with you.
The people who enforce the laws in this country have finally got to me, read on ...
Recently my neighbour and friend was broken into during the night. The thieves got away with some power tools and left his back door in a bad way. Although this was not as bad as it could have been his wife was somewhat distressed by the event. On contacting the police he was told that as they did not have a realistic chance of catching the criminals and as they were very busy with other more important incidents they would not bother attending and duly issued a crime reference number for insurance purposes. While my friend understood what they were saying he would have liked them to at least put in an appearance to make his wife feel a little safer. On arriving at work later that day (he runs his own small company) he found that 4 of his windows had been damaged by kids throwing bricks at them. The company next door had suffered the same fate until a local resident had taken issue with the kids and called the police. Once again the police decided not to attend as the kids had by then run away. Later that day one of his employees' vans was vandalised in broad daylight by another group of youths - this time the police attended, but over 3 hours after the crime was witnessed by a local shopkeeper and thereby making my friend's employee more than a little late for his next appointments.
Later that evening my friend and I went out for a curry as he was somewhat wound up by the whole situation. As we were going out we passed a speed trap manned by four uniformed officers on a part of the road where drivers are more likely to break the speed limit rather than where it is most dangerous to do so. Coming back some 2 hours later they were still there. Fortunately I was driving as if my friend had been there would have been nothing in the world I could hae done to stop him getting out and remonstrating with them over why they had 2 hours to man a speed trap when they couldn't spare half an hour of one officer's time to visit his house. As it was he wound the window down and hurled abuse at them when I refused to stop. I know this is not a particularly clever way to behave, but I think you can appreciate his frustration.
I know this is the old chestnut, but it's so true. While people carry on tailgating, observing poor lane discipline, driving with their foglights on, driving aggressively do the authorities do anything about it - NO. While people are burgled, mugged, their property vandalised do the authorities try and do anything about it - NO. Instead they spend their time manning speedtraps and carrying out other mundane tasks - they simply must be able to use their time (and our tax) to better effect in other areas of society, but how can we get the message over to them. Will it have to wait until groups of vigalantes take the law into their own hands - I hope not, but who knows.
Regards,
tiggers
The people who enforce the laws in this country have finally got to me, read on ...
Recently my neighbour and friend was broken into during the night. The thieves got away with some power tools and left his back door in a bad way. Although this was not as bad as it could have been his wife was somewhat distressed by the event. On contacting the police he was told that as they did not have a realistic chance of catching the criminals and as they were very busy with other more important incidents they would not bother attending and duly issued a crime reference number for insurance purposes. While my friend understood what they were saying he would have liked them to at least put in an appearance to make his wife feel a little safer. On arriving at work later that day (he runs his own small company) he found that 4 of his windows had been damaged by kids throwing bricks at them. The company next door had suffered the same fate until a local resident had taken issue with the kids and called the police. Once again the police decided not to attend as the kids had by then run away. Later that day one of his employees' vans was vandalised in broad daylight by another group of youths - this time the police attended, but over 3 hours after the crime was witnessed by a local shopkeeper and thereby making my friend's employee more than a little late for his next appointments.
Later that evening my friend and I went out for a curry as he was somewhat wound up by the whole situation. As we were going out we passed a speed trap manned by four uniformed officers on a part of the road where drivers are more likely to break the speed limit rather than where it is most dangerous to do so. Coming back some 2 hours later they were still there. Fortunately I was driving as if my friend had been there would have been nothing in the world I could hae done to stop him getting out and remonstrating with them over why they had 2 hours to man a speed trap when they couldn't spare half an hour of one officer's time to visit his house. As it was he wound the window down and hurled abuse at them when I refused to stop. I know this is not a particularly clever way to behave, but I think you can appreciate his frustration.
I know this is the old chestnut, but it's so true. While people carry on tailgating, observing poor lane discipline, driving with their foglights on, driving aggressively do the authorities do anything about it - NO. While people are burgled, mugged, their property vandalised do the authorities try and do anything about it - NO. Instead they spend their time manning speedtraps and carrying out other mundane tasks - they simply must be able to use their time (and our tax) to better effect in other areas of society, but how can we get the message over to them. Will it have to wait until groups of vigalantes take the law into their own hands - I hope not, but who knows.
Regards,
tiggers
03 July 2000, 07:01 PM
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It could be worse - if Tony Blair has his way, by shouting out of the window, your mate could be marched down to the nearest cashpoint and forced to withdraw £100!
mb
mb
03 July 2000, 07:08 PM
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it's called income generation!!!! not for the police but there home office masters who reap VAST amounts of cash from speeding fines!!! also it's alot easier to catch a speeder than a burglar and most of them cough up without protest, unlike the burglar who goes through the courts and costs thousands!!!!just look at the m6 at gathurst, 22000 offences!!!, many of which will be through the courts rather than 40 fines raising even more money!!! i wouldn't mind so much if they did it where there were children etc i.e. outside schools, but once again- that's too hard!!!!
03 July 2000, 07:15 PM
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Tiggers,
that's a disgrace. Write to your Chief Constable or other and complain, demanding he explain how this has come about.
My wife's car got broken into the day she was due to give birth- she had to go to hospital for a scan. The Police refused to attend even though she was terribly distressed- and she told them full term and scared s$$$less. I pegged it home, praying I'd see a traffic cop to chase me home. Needless to say I didn't.
Nothing came of it surprise surprise.
[This message has been edited by sickboy (edited 03-07-2000).]
that's a disgrace. Write to your Chief Constable or other and complain, demanding he explain how this has come about.
My wife's car got broken into the day she was due to give birth- she had to go to hospital for a scan. The Police refused to attend even though she was terribly distressed- and she told them full term and scared s$$$less. I pegged it home, praying I'd see a traffic cop to chase me home. Needless to say I didn't.
Nothing came of it surprise surprise.
[This message has been edited by sickboy (edited 03-07-2000).]
03 July 2000, 07:26 PM
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I had about 4 grands worth of fishing gear nicked last year from my garage. Oddly enough my gargae had been unlocked for months and I got a local locksmith to fit a lock. The next day the garage had been broken into but the lock had been unlocked. Now I might not be the sharpest chap around but that seemed odd to me. The police did turn up and took fingerprints in vain but didn't take up my offer of the locksmiths details.
Was left unimpressed. I only think they turned up as 2 other garages were broken into but oddly nothing was taken from these despite on of them being full of expensive power tools.
Has anyone seen a " bobby on the beat" in the last 2 years ??
AllanB
Was left unimpressed. I only think they turned up as 2 other garages were broken into but oddly nothing was taken from these despite on of them being full of expensive power tools.
Has anyone seen a " bobby on the beat" in the last 2 years ??
AllanB
03 July 2000, 07:55 PM
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One friday night when i was working a car was stopped by the police outside of my workplace, there was one guy in the car could only of been no more than 18 or 19 years old and how many police did it take to stop this full on hardcore crim? 3 patrol cars each with 2 officers, 2 omega's and one transit with about 10 more coppers inside it!
So there you have it next time your a victem of crime rest easy in the knowledge that the resouces are being targeted at the right priority!
So there you have it next time your a victem of crime rest easy in the knowledge that the resouces are being targeted at the right priority!
03 July 2000, 10:14 PM
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I was just going to poke my head above the parapet and say that I thought that the Traffic Police were quite seperate from the beat cops. They even wear different colour hats!
Seriously though. They are all told what to do by some chap in an office, and your anger should be directed at him, and the policy makers that decide that criminalising the public is more productive than serving and protecting the people that pay their wages.
Fire off a couple of strong letters, it may not be replied to but I reckon that the numbers of letters hitting the chief constables desks will only increase until we can make ourselves heard.
KF.
Seriously though. They are all told what to do by some chap in an office, and your anger should be directed at him, and the policy makers that decide that criminalising the public is more productive than serving and protecting the people that pay their wages.
Fire off a couple of strong letters, it may not be replied to but I reckon that the numbers of letters hitting the chief constables desks will only increase until we can make ourselves heard.
KF.
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03 July 2000, 10:59 PM
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I once made the mistake of trying to explain to the two nice coppers in the unmarked police car that their time could be better employed catching rapists etc. than pulling people on ratty, but legal motorbikes.
Shan't be doing that again!
Cheers
Simon
PS Editing this cos I forgot to say sympathies to your mate and his missus, it is a really horrible thing to go through.
[This message has been edited by simes (edited 03-07-2000).]
Shan't be doing that again!
Cheers
Simon
PS Editing this cos I forgot to say sympathies to your mate and his missus, it is a really horrible thing to go through.
[This message has been edited by simes (edited 03-07-2000).]
04 July 2000, 08:47 AM
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I sympathise, but have to say it doesn't concur with my experiences. Our house was broken into last year when we were away, and the first I knew was when the police called me on my mobile and told me.
I explained that I was 2 hours away, so they agreed to leave a policeman in the house until I got there (doors had been kicked in) - in the meantime they were fingerprinting.
Without wishing to be a devil's advocate, is not catching a drunk driver at least as important as catching a burglar? Speedtraps aren't there just to catch speeders - the drivers are usually alcohol tested as well.
Nick
PS AllanB - I see bobbies on the beat pretty regularly here in Watford.
I explained that I was 2 hours away, so they agreed to leave a policeman in the house until I got there (doors had been kicked in) - in the meantime they were fingerprinting.
Without wishing to be a devil's advocate, is not catching a drunk driver at least as important as catching a burglar? Speedtraps aren't there just to catch speeders - the drivers are usually alcohol tested as well.
Nick
PS AllanB - I see bobbies on the beat pretty regularly here in Watford.
04 July 2000, 10:11 AM
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It's partly about numbers. Commitees of police officers (in my experience) will sit together and decide where to deploy officers on the basis of statistics and intelligence (information that is).
Its also about Politics. What crimes are the government/constabulary telling the nation/county they are targeting. These are the statistics (clear ups) that they will want to collect and will focus officers efforts on.
Traffic Officers are specialists really and will generally not do the routine type of work given to local officers (such as Burglary). But a lot of crime is discovered by Traffic Officers.
It's about manning levels. Where I am one officer (maybe two) will be responsible for a large geographic area. They may not be able to cover it if it's busy.
It's about policy. Where I used to be in London a burglary would always get attended by a uniform officer even if one wasn't free for two hours.
You need to write to the Chief Officer for your Constabulary. I don't think he'll instantly convert traffic officers but you could enquire about their burglary policy.
Its also about Politics. What crimes are the government/constabulary telling the nation/county they are targeting. These are the statistics (clear ups) that they will want to collect and will focus officers efforts on.
Traffic Officers are specialists really and will generally not do the routine type of work given to local officers (such as Burglary). But a lot of crime is discovered by Traffic Officers.
It's about manning levels. Where I am one officer (maybe two) will be responsible for a large geographic area. They may not be able to cover it if it's busy.
It's about policy. Where I used to be in London a burglary would always get attended by a uniform officer even if one wasn't free for two hours.
You need to write to the Chief Officer for your Constabulary. I don't think he'll instantly convert traffic officers but you could enquire about their burglary policy.
04 July 2000, 10:22 AM
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Thanks for the replies and its nice to know that the police seem to be reasonable in some parts of the copuntry.
Regarding the traffic police being separate, that may be the case and while I agree that the police manning these traps should not be the targets of our frustration it is nevertheless annoying to see 4 officers stood by the side of the road for more than two hours when the local station says it does not have the resource to attend a burglary.
As for drink driving I agree that they may stop people for this as an aside, but if that was their primary intention wouldn't they be better off hanging round busy pubs at closing time. I know several locals in our area where people regularly drive home over the limit and if I know them I can only presume the police do too. I'm sure that if they had a device that they could point at these people from several hundred yards away to detect the alcohol level and on finding it too high notified them via the post then they would use it or am I just being a little too cynical.
Regards,
tiggers
Regarding the traffic police being separate, that may be the case and while I agree that the police manning these traps should not be the targets of our frustration it is nevertheless annoying to see 4 officers stood by the side of the road for more than two hours when the local station says it does not have the resource to attend a burglary.
As for drink driving I agree that they may stop people for this as an aside, but if that was their primary intention wouldn't they be better off hanging round busy pubs at closing time. I know several locals in our area where people regularly drive home over the limit and if I know them I can only presume the police do too. I'm sure that if they had a device that they could point at these people from several hundred yards away to detect the alcohol level and on finding it too high notified them via the post then they would use it or am I just being a little too cynical.
Regards,
tiggers
04 July 2000, 07:34 PM
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Tiggers,
On the one hand I can understand your frustration, however, the Traffic Officers are not part of the manning levels of the Local Station. They are part of a different department with it's own priorities and aims.
I have no doubt that the company that you work for has it's own priorites and that individuals are assigned to those priorities, whilst others will be assigned different tasks to fit in with the Managements policy.
The Police are no different in that respect, they are managed by the Senior Officers who are given their objectives by the Government and Local Authorities and other Pressure Groups. The PC on the street is given his targets and gets flak from his supervisors if he doesn't meet those targets, even if he knows they are unrealistic or just plain daft and from "offenders" that are caught.
Just a thought, who suffers the most:
a) The victim of a vanadalism or theft where no injury is sustained by the victim and monetary loss is reclaimed from an insurance company. A pain in the proverbial **** and in a lot of cases distressing to the victim.
b) The victim of a drunk driver who ploughs into their loved one killing or maiming for life.
Would you not be happy with the thought that those 4 officers MAY have caught just one Drunk driver and stopped him killing someone later that day. Yes the drunk is an easy target but that doesn't make it wrong does it?
How would you feel if a Policeman called to tell you that a loved one of yours had been killed by a drunk driver He then went on to say that the Police had a policy of not stopping motorists with a view to trying to catch drunk drivers 'cause they now have a policy of trying to catch "proper criminals" instead.
As a last note, if the Police were to park up just outside apub stopping drivers leaving the pub, they would receive so many complaints of harrasment from those drivers and the landlords, they wouldn't have any time to do any police work, they would spend all of their time being interviewed by the Complaints bodies.
OK, I will get off the soap box and nothing that I have said is meant to be offensive, only an opinion
On the one hand I can understand your frustration, however, the Traffic Officers are not part of the manning levels of the Local Station. They are part of a different department with it's own priorities and aims.
I have no doubt that the company that you work for has it's own priorites and that individuals are assigned to those priorities, whilst others will be assigned different tasks to fit in with the Managements policy.
The Police are no different in that respect, they are managed by the Senior Officers who are given their objectives by the Government and Local Authorities and other Pressure Groups. The PC on the street is given his targets and gets flak from his supervisors if he doesn't meet those targets, even if he knows they are unrealistic or just plain daft and from "offenders" that are caught.
Just a thought, who suffers the most:
a) The victim of a vanadalism or theft where no injury is sustained by the victim and monetary loss is reclaimed from an insurance company. A pain in the proverbial **** and in a lot of cases distressing to the victim.
b) The victim of a drunk driver who ploughs into their loved one killing or maiming for life.
Would you not be happy with the thought that those 4 officers MAY have caught just one Drunk driver and stopped him killing someone later that day. Yes the drunk is an easy target but that doesn't make it wrong does it?
How would you feel if a Policeman called to tell you that a loved one of yours had been killed by a drunk driver He then went on to say that the Police had a policy of not stopping motorists with a view to trying to catch drunk drivers 'cause they now have a policy of trying to catch "proper criminals" instead.
As a last note, if the Police were to park up just outside apub stopping drivers leaving the pub, they would receive so many complaints of harrasment from those drivers and the landlords, they wouldn't have any time to do any police work, they would spend all of their time being interviewed by the Complaints bodies.
OK, I will get off the soap box and nothing that I have said is meant to be offensive, only an opinion
04 July 2000, 08:03 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kevin Tree:
<B>
...
b) The victim of a drunk driver who ploughs into their loved one killing or maiming for life.
Would you not be happy with the thought that those 4 officers MAY have caught just one Drunk driver and stopped him killing someone later that day. Yes the drunk is an easy target but that doesn't make it wrong does it?
[/quote]
I think that you are trying to play upon emotions a bit too much here. Just because someone is speeding doesn't mean that they are drunk. Indeed many "hard core persistent offenders" drive quite slowly, thus not attracting the attention of Mr Gatso or Mr Laser trap.
You are falling into the trap of saying "it is worth it, if only a single life is saved", when for the same effort targetted elsewhere, many thousands of lives can be improved.
Sorry, getting a bit heavy,
mb
<B>
...
b) The victim of a drunk driver who ploughs into their loved one killing or maiming for life.
Would you not be happy with the thought that those 4 officers MAY have caught just one Drunk driver and stopped him killing someone later that day. Yes the drunk is an easy target but that doesn't make it wrong does it?
[/quote]
I think that you are trying to play upon emotions a bit too much here. Just because someone is speeding doesn't mean that they are drunk. Indeed many "hard core persistent offenders" drive quite slowly, thus not attracting the attention of Mr Gatso or Mr Laser trap.
You are falling into the trap of saying "it is worth it, if only a single life is saved", when for the same effort targetted elsewhere, many thousands of lives can be improved.
Sorry, getting a bit heavy,
mb
04 July 2000, 08:49 PM
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I would assume that a Police Officer on a speed trap would stop someone that they thought to be drunk even if they were not speeding, as they would if they were committing other offences. I don't consider that I am playing on emotions, ask anyone who has been the victim of a drunk driver. As for efforts applied elsewhere, sure they may have some impact but that doesn't compare to saving a life, does it?
Sorry for also getting heavy, in my book a drunk driver who kills someone is as bad as a murderer.
Sorry for also getting heavy, in my book a drunk driver who kills someone is as bad as a murderer.
05 July 2000, 12:33 PM
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Kevin,
Are you a school teacher by any chance - it's just that the patronising tone in your post would lead me to think that you are used to talking to people as if you believe they are all less educated than yourself (Hey maybe your a policeman).
I can operate a computer (and tie my own shoe laces) so I am able to understand that the police have priorities and policies and management structures etc. just like the little company I work for in fact.
I don't think you will find anywhere in my posts where I say the drunk is an easy target or where I suggest that we should blame the police manning the trap. Quite the opposite in fact which is why I would not stop when my friend wanted me to. Please read my posts a little more carefully before wading in.
While I agree that I would be happy if just one drunk driver were to be caught by the speed trap I still can't see why they would need four officers to accomplish this, but no doubt you'll enlighten me. I wouldn't bother though because I shan't be reading this post anymore. Frankly I wish I'd never started it - the idea was to get it off my chest, but now I'm more wound up than when I began.
In my opinion we are getting a raw deal as far as law enforcment and the judicial system goes, but being British we'll no doubt just sit back and take it (much like the petrol prices).
Regards,
tiggers
Are you a school teacher by any chance - it's just that the patronising tone in your post would lead me to think that you are used to talking to people as if you believe they are all less educated than yourself (Hey maybe your a policeman).
I can operate a computer (and tie my own shoe laces) so I am able to understand that the police have priorities and policies and management structures etc. just like the little company I work for in fact.
I don't think you will find anywhere in my posts where I say the drunk is an easy target or where I suggest that we should blame the police manning the trap. Quite the opposite in fact which is why I would not stop when my friend wanted me to. Please read my posts a little more carefully before wading in.
While I agree that I would be happy if just one drunk driver were to be caught by the speed trap I still can't see why they would need four officers to accomplish this, but no doubt you'll enlighten me. I wouldn't bother though because I shan't be reading this post anymore. Frankly I wish I'd never started it - the idea was to get it off my chest, but now I'm more wound up than when I began.
In my opinion we are getting a raw deal as far as law enforcment and the judicial system goes, but being British we'll no doubt just sit back and take it (much like the petrol prices).
Regards,
tiggers
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