Jap2Scrap

Following on from THIS thread...

Greenpeace Vs LandRover

Buch of lentil munching retards. I bet that delapidated boat of theirs chucks out more pollution than 1000 4x4's...

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Nice one...

From the linked article this is exactly why Greanpiece ***** are wrong in what they do and the way they do it!

Sense at last... And no-one can rubbish his scientific credentials...


Mick

dmc1980

They are just a bunch of tree huggers with no jobs. Bloody wasters. Put them all on their boat and set it on fire!!

JackClark

If you like that you should take a look at or listen to John Grisham - State of Fear.

hedgehog

Actually they are trying to do just that, there are efforts afoot to try and discredit Bellamy and to have him removed from some of the scientific posts he holds. Remember there is a lot of grant money to be had telling the greens and government what they want to hear.

In truth 96.5% of the CO2 produced comes from non-human natural sources, just 3.5% is down to us (D.S. Schimmel, Global Change Biology)

Just remember, many people choose to believe in man made global warming and they are entitled to do that. However, there is no scientific basis for this so don't let them dictate to you what you should do based upon their beliefs. Various religious groups don't lobby the government that you shouldn't be allowed a private car so why should the green lobby be allowed to do it based upon their beliefs?

All the current scientific work, mostly based upon the analysis of ice cores, has found that increases in atmospheric CO2 LAG increases in temperature by about 800 years or so. As one example Caillon et al, 2003, stated "the CO2 increase lagged behind Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years." and went on to state than “CO2 is not the forcing that drives the climatic system.” (Caillon, N., Severinghaus, J.P., Jouzel, J., Barnola, J.-M., Kang, J. and Lipenkov, V.Y. 2003. Timing of atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic temperature changes across Termination III. Science 299: 1728-1731 (2003))

One of the big doom situations currently enjoying a run in the media is that the Antarctic is melting and sea level will rise. We are being sold this in a big way and here is what science has to say about it:

Comiso, J.C. 2000. Variability and trends in Antarctic surface temperature from in situ and satellite infrared measurements. Journal of Climate 13: 1674-1696

Over the entire period studied, it was determined that the mean rate of change of sea ice extent for the entire Antarctic region was an increase of 0.043 M km2 per year. The authors additionally concluded that "the increasing trend in the sea ice extent over the Antarctic region may be slowly accelerating in time, particularly over the last decade."

Liu, J., Curry, J.A. and Martinson, D.G. 2004. Interpretation of recent Antarctic sea ice variability. Geophysical Research Letters 31: 10.1029/2003GL018732.

Liu et al. report that "overall, the total Antarctic sea ice extent (the cumulative area of grid boxes covering at least 15% ice concentrations) has shown an increasing trend (~4,801 km2/yr)." In addition, they find that "the total Antarctic sea ice area (the cumulative area of the ocean actually covered by at least 15% ice concentrations) has increased significantly by ~13,295 km2/yr, exceeding the 95% confidence level," noting that "the upward trends in the total ice extent and area are robust for different cutoffs of 15, 20, and 30% ice concentrations (used to define the ice extent and area)."

Parkinson, C.L. 2002. Trends in the length of the southern Ocean sea-ice season, 1979-99. Annals of Glaciology 34: 435-440.

Over the 21 years of the study, most of the Ross Sea has, in the words of the author, "undergone a lengthening of the sea-ice season, whereas most of the Amundsen Sea ice cover and almost the entire Bellingshausen Sea ice cover have undergone a shortening of the sea-ice season," while "results for the Weddell Sea are mixed." Overall, Parkinson reports that "the area of the Southern Ocean experiencing a lengthening of the sea-ice season by at least 1 day per year over the period 1979-99 is 5.6 x 106 km2, whereas the area experiencing a shortening of the sea-ice season by at least 1 day per year is 46% less than that, at 3.0 x 106 km2."

Zwally, H.J., Comiso, J.C., Parkinson, C.L. Cavalieri, D.J. and Gloersen, P. 2002. Variability of Antarctic sea ice 1979-1998. Journal of Geophysical Research 107: 10.1029/2000JC000733.

For the entire Southern Ocean, sea ice extent was found to have increased by 11,181 ± 4190 square km per year, or by 0.98 ± 0.37 percent per decade. Sea ice area for the Southern Ocean was also shown to have increased by nearly the same amount: 10,860 ± 3720 square km per year, or 1.26 ± 0.43 percent per decade. Regionally, trends in sea ice extent were positive in the Weddell Sea, the Pacific Ocean and the Ross Sea; while they were nearly in balance to slightly negative in the Indian Ocean, and negative in the Bellingshausen/Amundsen Seas. In terms of variability, the interannual variability of the mean sea ice extent was only 1.6%; while monthly variability in sea ice extent was 4.0% over the first ten years of the record, declining to 2.7% over the last ten years.

Yuan, X. and Martinson, D.G. 2000. Antarctic sea ice extent variability and its global connectivity. Journal of Climate 13: 1697-1717.

Among a host of other things, it was learned that the net trend in the mean Antarctic sea ice edge over the last 18 years has been an equatorward expansion of 0.011 degree of latitude per year.

the Antarctic isn't melting at all so don't worry about drowning, the ice is thickening at about 27 billion tonnes per year (Joughin & Tulaczyk, Science).

al3x

you have lost me...........

hedgehog

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smart ****, but if you don't quote your references then green nutters usually counter with "you've no proof, where are your references."

As you point out the danger of quoting them is that everyone dies from the tedium. The bottom line is that what it says is that there is no evidence of man made global warming and the green nutters are lying to you.

The organisation which provides governments, and the press, with their "information" on global warming is the IPCC. Chris Landsea was one of their experts on the huge hurricanes which they told us we were going to have in the Atlantic because of global warming. You can read his resignation letter here:

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/pr...ea_leaves.html

This gives you some idea of how much the media is being manipulated. The dossier on Iraq has nothing on the dodgy information the government are using to support man made global warming.

al3x

The bloke I work with also says global warming is, in his words `bollo*ks`, and he is a very clever man, so I believe him!

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Hedgehog... Awesome! - You know some stuff...

that link was very enlightening

Thanks

Mick

Neil Smalley

Ice cores are an unreliable way of determining age. For example the 'rings' which are used date the sample are'nt seasonal as thought, but simply where the ice has thawed and re-frozen which can happen serveral times a year.

Do a google on the lost squadron.

In July 1942, twenty-five U.S. Army Air Corps crewman were forced to ditch two new B-17 Flying Fortresses and six new P-38 Lightnings on Greenland’s ice-cap when bad weather kept them from delivering the warplanes to Great Britain. Forty-six years later, Pat Epps and Richard Taylor joined the list of aviators who had long-dreamed of recovering the eight planes by managing to locate the treasures under 268 feet of snow and ice. Using "cold mining" techniques, Epps and Taylor were able to retrieve one of the P-38s by bringing it to the surface one piece at a time in 1992. Dubbed "Glacier Girl," the airplane is being reassembled and carefully restored in Middlesboro, Kentucky and is expected to fly again within a few years.

E.g
http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/...9/squadron.htm

hedgehog

Ice cores may be dated by counting the rings but, as you point out, this method of dating can have its problems. Scientists are also aware of the possibility of problems and most of the variables are known. For this reason when ice cores are used for science a range of dating methods are applied to the same sections of ice core (in many cases the core is actually discontinuous and so it is impossible just to count the rings.) In one recent example (the Vostok ice core) the following methods were used in parallel to to produce a date for the ice core:

18O/16O isotopic analysis
independent ice-flow calculations
comparison with other ice cores
paleoclimatic comparison
comparison with deep sea cores
10Be/9Be isotopic analysis
deuterium/hydrogen isotopic analysis
comparison with marine climatic record
CO2 correspondances between dated ice-cores
CO2 correspondances with dated oceanic cores

The information on this is widely available in the literature, including Nature, so i'm not going to hunt down the references for you.

Leslie

Interesting posts Hedgehog, thanks.

With all the accusations of pollution by cars, I wonder why they still dont tax aircraft fuel which causes enormous amounts of greenhouse gases, and why are they increasing the capacity of Heathrow by some 13 million passengers a year?

Les

JayBee

Just a worrying thought...

But how long will it be, do you think, before they start targeting factories, then dealerships then actual drivers of sportscars/performance cars directly as well?

"You are hereby charged with being environmentaly antisocial!! Therfore as your local lentil muncher this gives me the right to attack/defile/spit on your pride and joy and/or you"

Give it another year or so and I think this will happen

J

hedgehog

Actually you might find that real soon now the greens are going to have other things to go attacking.

Although they are doing well in their campaign to force us out of private transport and this is done with the support of our administration and other governments in Europe (who in the 1996 Copenhagen Declaration declared "The car is a major cause of social exlusion and its use must be curtailed by all means available.") it is a source of some amusement to many that the greens are in for a big shock.

The UK administration have been, along with the greens, selling the idea that CO2 and global warming represents the bigest threat to humanity currently known. Very soon now you are going to find the current government announcing a new nuclear power station building scheme and they are going to cite the claims by the greens as the reason they need to do this. The greens are currently between a rock and a hard place and are in serious difficulties in terms of the message they want to give out. Clearly a lot of their organisation is made up of the nutters that sat at Greenham Common and so on and they are very anti-nuclear and now the government are going to use their global warming propaganda to build nuclear plants.

What is even more amusing, in a strange way, is that the greens have been ignoring planning applications to build power lines to remote parts of Scotland, something they would normally object to, because, they were told, wind farms were going to be built at the end of the line of pylons. Anyone want to guess what will actually be built at the end of the power line? They have literally supported the government in putting the infrastructure in place to service the nuclear power stations.

So, they may not have time to be attacking and spitting at you, though they certainly have the time to do it to huntsmen, guns and anglers, because they might be spending their days either chaining themselves to nuclear construction work or sitting home trying to work out how they could have been suckered into making such fools of themselves.

Don't get too smug though, they still want control over you and me and our access to private transport and my guess is that there will be a lot of political horsetrading going on in the near future. The government might give concessions to the greens to "ease" their nuclear programme and we, the motorist, might be that concession.

Brendan Hughes

Stephen Tinsdale's story here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatecha...487038,00.html

I note one particular couplet:

"After they had stripped down to the orange boiler suits, each activist handcuffed themselves to a Range Rover Sport. (They chose the Sport rather than the Defender, also produced at Solihull, because it is an SUV marketed for urban use, as a lifestyle choice. Defenders are mostly used, legitimately, as Greenpeace see it, in the countryside.) "

Mick

iTrader: (1)

As is said in the article BH has a link to...
In reality if you picked up all the 4x4s and crushed them today what difference would there be to global polution in real terms? - Absolutely nothing!

King RA

- Michael Crichton m8