Recommend me: stereo and speaker upgrade
26 July 2016, 03:44 PM
#1
Recommend me: stereo and speaker upgrade
Time to replace the old, now dead, Kenwood 4210BT unit. Thought I'd do the speakers at the same time.
Budget, no more than £1000. Unit needs to be iPodable, ideally android link too, digital radio would be nice too. The old unit had sat nav. But happy to buy a TomTom if needed.
Any stereo gurus out there?
Budget, no more than £1000. Unit needs to be iPodable, ideally android link too, digital radio would be nice too. The old unit had sat nav. But happy to buy a TomTom if needed.
Any stereo gurus out there?
26 July 2016, 03:51 PM
#2
A decent budget.
Does it need to be double-din or can you live with a single din?
What are the priorities: audio quality and connectivity or features & functions?
Will you use ampliphers?
How many speakers?
Do you want a sub?
What do you listen to?
Will you install yourself?
Does it need to be double-din or can you live with a single din?
What are the priorities: audio quality and connectivity or features & functions?
Will you use ampliphers?
How many speakers?
Do you want a sub?
What do you listen to?
Will you install yourself?
26 July 2016, 03:58 PM
#3
Single or double, not too fixed on that.
Priorities: decent all-rounder. Must be connectable to the phone and the iPod.
Amps? If I need one, I'll get one.
Speakers - just looking to upgrade what is there, possibly a sub for bass?
Listen to R&B/Hip-Hop mainly, but a bit of everything really.
Can do most basic installs, but I'm getting lazier the older I get so I'm going to get someone to fix it.
Priorities: decent all-rounder. Must be connectable to the phone and the iPod.
Amps? If I need one, I'll get one.
Speakers - just looking to upgrade what is there, possibly a sub for bass?
Listen to R&B/Hip-Hop mainly, but a bit of everything really.
Can do most basic installs, but I'm getting lazier the older I get so I'm going to get someone to fix it.
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26 July 2016, 05:19 PM
#8
I have a Bug Wagon - so makes this a bit easier.
Best simple set up for audio is a pair of components up front and a sub in the boot. Don't bother with the speakers in the rear doors - waste of time as all they do is ruin the sound stage.
Everything comes down to the install, otherwise you're juts wasting your money on components.
5.25" can fit up front but 6.5" are better and will fit with a little trimming of the door-skin. MDF speaker rings of course and cover both the inner and outer door with SilentCoat or similar. Room is at a premium in the doors, so look for speakers with a shallow depth. You can fit deep speakers but you need to space them further from the door, then you run into issues with door cards. Stupid design in the Bug's, however I got around this by fitting door cards from a later Blob/Hawk. Straight swap and they give a lot more room.
Tweeters need mouting ideally on the A-Pillars (will be an easy build for a Pro) but you can mount them on the dash and still get good results.
Most component sets will come with passive cross-overs. One thing to bare in mind is that even with a load of sound deadening on my doors, I still can't play the speakers as low as 100hz without a lot of vibration.
So it's worth considering a head unit, or amp that allows you to set a high-pass above 100hz for the front speakers.
With your budget, you'd be daft not use a separate amplifer for the front. Will make a world of difference compared to using the little HU internal amp.
Lots of room under the front seats for an amp, so it can all be hidden out of sight.
A sub makes a huge difference regardless of what music you play. All music has sub-notes and having a dedicated speaker will always sound better than pushing smaller speakers. Also sub-bass is non-directional, so it's placement is critical. A simple 12" box in the boot will suffice. Again, this needs to be amped and I'd advise a separate one to the other speakers.
Can't advise too much on HU's as you'll need to decide on the features yourself. Look for multiple RCA outs (at least 2 but some have dedicated HIGH, MID and LOW channels). Any proper EQ capability (not just a graphic equalize, but proper mulit-band EQ's and Time Alignment) will greatly help to tune the system to your liking, rather than just an assortment of loud speakers in a car....a lot of these features can be found in amps also.
If unsure, it's best to discuss with whoever is going to build it for you. If for example, you got a headunit with multi-amp control and fully adjustable EQ's, you wouldn't need any cross-overs and could use far simpler amps. Alternatively, you coud go for a feature-rich HU and get appropriate amps to take care of the cross-overs and EQs.
You can of course build a system using just simple passive crossovers and preset EQs that will sound very good. The risk is though that you don't like the end result but have no way of tuning it.
As I say, if you aren't familiar with what's what, best to have a discussion with your builder, just be clear as to what you want. With regards to prices, I would seriously consider second hand. With the exception of my HU, all my speakers and amps I bought second hand (mainly from here: https://www.talkstuff.net/ipb/index....=desc&filter=0). It probably would have cost me 3 times as much had I paid new for everything. Amps are particularly good value if you can here them first, as there is veery little to break on them, short of being badly wired or cooked. Speakers are more of a gamble but again, as long as the seller lets you hear them first.
If buying new, I guess:
£125+ for Comps = Hertz, Rainbow, Focal etc. Very competitive at this price point so can't really go wrong.
For an amp for the front, I'd say you want at least 75w @ 4ohms per channel. The more the better. Something like this http://caraudiosecurity.com/dream-2-...able-amplifier
You could get a 12" Sub, boxed with an amp for £200.
So that's what, half your budget?
£200 on a HU and £300 for the install including cables, fitting and sound deadening? Is that realistic? I've no idea want an install costs.
Best simple set up for audio is a pair of components up front and a sub in the boot. Don't bother with the speakers in the rear doors - waste of time as all they do is ruin the sound stage.
Everything comes down to the install, otherwise you're juts wasting your money on components.
5.25" can fit up front but 6.5" are better and will fit with a little trimming of the door-skin. MDF speaker rings of course and cover both the inner and outer door with SilentCoat or similar. Room is at a premium in the doors, so look for speakers with a shallow depth. You can fit deep speakers but you need to space them further from the door, then you run into issues with door cards. Stupid design in the Bug's, however I got around this by fitting door cards from a later Blob/Hawk. Straight swap and they give a lot more room.
Tweeters need mouting ideally on the A-Pillars (will be an easy build for a Pro) but you can mount them on the dash and still get good results.
Most component sets will come with passive cross-overs. One thing to bare in mind is that even with a load of sound deadening on my doors, I still can't play the speakers as low as 100hz without a lot of vibration.
So it's worth considering a head unit, or amp that allows you to set a high-pass above 100hz for the front speakers.
With your budget, you'd be daft not use a separate amplifer for the front. Will make a world of difference compared to using the little HU internal amp.
Lots of room under the front seats for an amp, so it can all be hidden out of sight.
A sub makes a huge difference regardless of what music you play. All music has sub-notes and having a dedicated speaker will always sound better than pushing smaller speakers. Also sub-bass is non-directional, so it's placement is critical. A simple 12" box in the boot will suffice. Again, this needs to be amped and I'd advise a separate one to the other speakers.
Can't advise too much on HU's as you'll need to decide on the features yourself. Look for multiple RCA outs (at least 2 but some have dedicated HIGH, MID and LOW channels). Any proper EQ capability (not just a graphic equalize, but proper mulit-band EQ's and Time Alignment) will greatly help to tune the system to your liking, rather than just an assortment of loud speakers in a car....a lot of these features can be found in amps also.
If unsure, it's best to discuss with whoever is going to build it for you. If for example, you got a headunit with multi-amp control and fully adjustable EQ's, you wouldn't need any cross-overs and could use far simpler amps. Alternatively, you coud go for a feature-rich HU and get appropriate amps to take care of the cross-overs and EQs.
You can of course build a system using just simple passive crossovers and preset EQs that will sound very good. The risk is though that you don't like the end result but have no way of tuning it.
As I say, if you aren't familiar with what's what, best to have a discussion with your builder, just be clear as to what you want. With regards to prices, I would seriously consider second hand. With the exception of my HU, all my speakers and amps I bought second hand (mainly from here: https://www.talkstuff.net/ipb/index....=desc&filter=0). It probably would have cost me 3 times as much had I paid new for everything. Amps are particularly good value if you can here them first, as there is veery little to break on them, short of being badly wired or cooked. Speakers are more of a gamble but again, as long as the seller lets you hear them first.
If buying new, I guess:
£125+ for Comps = Hertz, Rainbow, Focal etc. Very competitive at this price point so can't really go wrong.
For an amp for the front, I'd say you want at least 75w @ 4ohms per channel. The more the better. Something like this http://caraudiosecurity.com/dream-2-...able-amplifier
You could get a 12" Sub, boxed with an amp for £200.
So that's what, half your budget?
£200 on a HU and £300 for the install including cables, fitting and sound deadening? Is that realistic? I've no idea want an install costs.
28 July 2016, 02:50 PM
#16
£1k is a decent budget, so it's worth considering how you listen to music at home or on a decent hifi system. At home, you can move the speakers around and position them in the best place. Usually not stuck behind a cupboard of facing a sofa - unlike a car, where the speakers face your ankles and there is a dashboard and steering column in the way. You can also move your chair around until you are sitting in the correct place for stereo imaging, where the sound is balanced and appears to come from front and centre - like being at a conert.
In a car, everyting is compromised; the position of the speakers, the position of the listener, the path of the soundwaves. For this reason, regardless at how much money you spend on speakers and amps, the result will never sound great without additional processing. Be that the cross-over between speakers, the EQ level or time alignment of speakers.
So with your budget, I would definitely look into some kind of audio processor, in order to fine tune the system so that the speakers blend together and that you have a balanced soundstage (or you could just play it VERY LOUD)
For example, I have this HU http://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/deh-80prs which allows you to set the cross-over for Sub, Mid and Hi, from the HU (using 2 or 3 amps). It also has Time Alignment. This allows you to minutely adjust the time that each speaker plays the signal, in relation to each other. In effect, this allows you to virtually move the speakers around the car (even outside of the car) so as to create a proper soundstage, not hindered by the physical location of the speakers and confines of the car. It also has an auto EQ and Time Alignment function (like a 5.1 surround system at home). You fix a supplied mic where your head would be and get out and close the doors. The HU then plays a series of test tones from the speakers and automatically sets the EQ and TA.
I'm not too upto date with HU and processors but I know that Alpine do a system called IMPRINT and Audison have their Bit Ten offering. JL Audio also. It looks like there are quite a few HUs that now offer manual Time Alignment. I couldn't advise any though from first hand experience.
Anyway, something to discuss with your installer and maybe budget into your build.
09 August 2016, 08:17 AM
#17
Definitely go mid/tweeter comps (5.25" or better 6.5") and a boxed sub in the boot (10" or 12"), with a separate amp. Ideally only amp for the front and a dedicated amp for the sub.
£1k is a decent budget, so it's worth considering how you listen to music at home or on a decent hifi system. At home, you can move the speakers around and position them in the best place. Usually not stuck behind a cupboard of facing a sofa - unlike a car, where the speakers face your ankles and there is a dashboard and steering column in the way. You can also move your chair around until you are sitting in the correct place for stereo imaging, where the sound is balanced and appears to come from front and centre - like being at a conert.
In a car, everyting is compromised; the position of the speakers, the position of the listener, the path of the soundwaves. For this reason, regardless at how much money you spend on speakers and amps, the result will never sound great without additional processing. Be that the cross-over between speakers, the EQ level or time alignment of speakers.
So with your budget, I would definitely look into some kind of audio processor, in order to fine tune the system so that the speakers blend together and that you have a balanced soundstage (or you could just play it VERY LOUD)
For example, I have this HU http://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/deh-80prs which allows you to set the cross-over for Sub, Mid and Hi, from the HU (using 2 or 3 amps). It also has Time Alignment. This allows you to minutely adjust the time that each speaker plays the signal, in relation to each other. In effect, this allows you to virtually move the speakers around the car (even outside of the car) so as to create a proper soundstage, not hindered by the physical location of the speakers and confines of the car. It also has an auto EQ and Time Alignment function (like a 5.1 surround system at home). You fix a supplied mic where your head would be and get out and close the doors. The HU then plays a series of test tones from the speakers and automatically sets the EQ and TA.
I'm not too upto date with HU and processors but I know that Alpine do a system called IMPRINT and Audison have their Bit Ten offering. JL Audio also. It looks like there are quite a few HUs that now offer manual Time Alignment. I couldn't advise any though from first hand experience.
Anyway, something to discuss with your installer and maybe budget into your build.
£1k is a decent budget, so it's worth considering how you listen to music at home or on a decent hifi system. At home, you can move the speakers around and position them in the best place. Usually not stuck behind a cupboard of facing a sofa - unlike a car, where the speakers face your ankles and there is a dashboard and steering column in the way. You can also move your chair around until you are sitting in the correct place for stereo imaging, where the sound is balanced and appears to come from front and centre - like being at a conert.
In a car, everyting is compromised; the position of the speakers, the position of the listener, the path of the soundwaves. For this reason, regardless at how much money you spend on speakers and amps, the result will never sound great without additional processing. Be that the cross-over between speakers, the EQ level or time alignment of speakers.
So with your budget, I would definitely look into some kind of audio processor, in order to fine tune the system so that the speakers blend together and that you have a balanced soundstage (or you could just play it VERY LOUD)
For example, I have this HU http://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/deh-80prs which allows you to set the cross-over for Sub, Mid and Hi, from the HU (using 2 or 3 amps). It also has Time Alignment. This allows you to minutely adjust the time that each speaker plays the signal, in relation to each other. In effect, this allows you to virtually move the speakers around the car (even outside of the car) so as to create a proper soundstage, not hindered by the physical location of the speakers and confines of the car. It also has an auto EQ and Time Alignment function (like a 5.1 surround system at home). You fix a supplied mic where your head would be and get out and close the doors. The HU then plays a series of test tones from the speakers and automatically sets the EQ and TA.
I'm not too upto date with HU and processors but I know that Alpine do a system called IMPRINT and Audison have their Bit Ten offering. JL Audio also. It looks like there are quite a few HUs that now offer manual Time Alignment. I couldn't advise any though from first hand experience.
Anyway, something to discuss with your installer and maybe budget into your build.
No rears
Alpine CDE-196DAB head unit: http://www.alpine.co.uk/p/Products/dab3842/cde-196dab
Hertz ESK-165 in the front: http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-a...ergy-esk165_5/
Hertz HCP 4D Amp: http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-a...plifier-hcp4d/
Hertz EBX F25.5 (the box will mount on to the back of the rear seats so I can still get my two Labs in the back): http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-a...ergy-ebxf25_5/
This all comes to around £1,000 fitted with sound deadening, spacers and kits etc. Car's booked in for fitting next Friday, I just need to get back to him with final choice of components.
11 August 2016, 02:31 PM
#19
Can't go wrong with Hertz, the ESK are very popular comps. Not heard those passive rad boxes but you should have a very nice, balanced system once all set up. Where are they planning to install the tweeters?
Last edited by TECHNOPUG; 13 August 2016 at 07:18 PM.
11 August 2016, 07:30 PM
#21
Not too sure yet re the tweeters. They are looking at the pillars I believe or a dash mount, I think it depends on a few things, but we'll see when I finalise the install next week. In terms of the sound I was keen to have a HU that could process the sound effectively and I think the Alpine does the trick in terms of setting up the sound in the car's environ.
12 August 2016, 11:45 AM
#23
Not too sure yet re the tweeters. They are looking at the pillars I believe or a dash mount, I think it depends on a few things, but we'll see when I finalise the install next week. In terms of the sound I was keen to have a HU that could process the sound effectively and I think the Alpine does the trick in terms of setting up the sound in the car's environ.
13 August 2016, 07:17 PM
#24
All booked in for next Friday - should be a massive improvement on the standard equipment . . . couldn't be any worse. Cannot wait to get some sound back in the car. You start hearing lots of other noises and getting paranoid! Nothing a bit a bass won't solve.
13 August 2016, 07:22 PM
#25
The bass causes all the rattles though!
It's a thankless task; as soon as you fix one, it just moves the vibration along to another part of trim. I managed to have the only rattle-free 205 in existence back in the day, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to strip all the interior from the Bug and refit it properly. Definitely worth taking the trim off the tailgate and silentcoating inside if you have a sub in the boot though.
It's a thankless task; as soon as you fix one, it just moves the vibration along to another part of trim. I managed to have the only rattle-free 205 in existence back in the day, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to strip all the interior from the Bug and refit it properly. Definitely worth taking the trim off the tailgate and silentcoating inside if you have a sub in the boot though.
13 August 2016, 07:26 PM
#26
The bass causes all the rattles though!
It's a thankless task; as soon as you fix one, it just moves the vibration along to another part of trim. I managed to have the only rattle-free 205 in existence back in the day, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to strip all the interior from the Bug and refit it properly. Definitely worth taking the trim off the tailgate and silentcoating inside if you have a sub in the boot though.
It's a thankless task; as soon as you fix one, it just moves the vibration along to another part of trim. I managed to have the only rattle-free 205 in existence back in the day, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to strip all the interior from the Bug and refit it properly. Definitely worth taking the trim off the tailgate and silentcoating inside if you have a sub in the boot though.
It's a real treat to drive the wife's Freelander, it's like a limo in comparison in terms of NVH levels.
13 August 2016, 07:46 PM
#27
More rattles for sure. It's still vital that do a good job on installing the speakers and isolating the doors as much as possible, otherwise it will really effect the sound. However, all you are doing by stopping the door and speakers vibrating, is moving that energy through the bodyshell, where it will escape via the first loose bit of trim it finds.
You fix that and then it just moves to the next part. It's all just push-clips not proper screws, so everything resonates. The floor is very important to do as that's where the majority of road noise comes from; reflected off the road and back up into the car.
Currently I have an issue with my b-pillar trims, by the seat belts. I did have a problem with my rear passenger door which turned out to be the electric window switch trim. There is also a rattle in the boot which I'll be damned if I can find. This is all at every day listening volumes. Ultimately the Impreza is a very poor choice for an SQ system. Just turn it up louder seems to be the answer
One of the reasons a sub is so important (over the obvious benefits of have a properly dedicated speaker) is that both the doors are so thin, it's impossible to deaden them sufficiently to run any decent bass through them. I went to town on mine and I still have to set the low-pass above 100hz (110hz I think from memory). If I drop them down to below 100hz (sub-bass) to say 80hz, I can't play any sort of volume without them vibrating. They are simply too physically small (by volume) and the metal too thin to use as good bass enclosures. You need a Lexus or an 80s Merc really.
You do notice once the doors have been treated though, as you get a satisfying thunk when you close them, as opposed to the tinny slam. I guess though that if they were built like an 80's German uber-saloon, they'd weight about 300kgs more, so best just to accept their limitations and appreciate that there has to be a compromise between performance and build quality somewhere.
You fix that and then it just moves to the next part. It's all just push-clips not proper screws, so everything resonates. The floor is very important to do as that's where the majority of road noise comes from; reflected off the road and back up into the car.
Currently I have an issue with my b-pillar trims, by the seat belts. I did have a problem with my rear passenger door which turned out to be the electric window switch trim. There is also a rattle in the boot which I'll be damned if I can find. This is all at every day listening volumes. Ultimately the Impreza is a very poor choice for an SQ system. Just turn it up louder seems to be the answer
One of the reasons a sub is so important (over the obvious benefits of have a properly dedicated speaker) is that both the doors are so thin, it's impossible to deaden them sufficiently to run any decent bass through them. I went to town on mine and I still have to set the low-pass above 100hz (110hz I think from memory). If I drop them down to below 100hz (sub-bass) to say 80hz, I can't play any sort of volume without them vibrating. They are simply too physically small (by volume) and the metal too thin to use as good bass enclosures. You need a Lexus or an 80s Merc really.
You do notice once the doors have been treated though, as you get a satisfying thunk when you close them, as opposed to the tinny slam. I guess though that if they were built like an 80's German uber-saloon, they'd weight about 300kgs more, so best just to accept their limitations and appreciate that there has to be a compromise between performance and build quality somewhere.
Last edited by TECHNOPUG; 13 August 2016 at 07:52 PM.
19 August 2016, 06:37 PM
#28
System up and running and all I can say is 'wow'. The sound quality is stunning and the bass is quite incredible. To be fair, I'm not an ICE nut but this set up is excellent. The head unit is very capable and I will have hours of fun seeing it all up to finer levels. Big thank you to Auto sounds in Newcastle. Really good service. Cheers to TECHNOPUG for all the good advice! Right, off to make my ears bleed.
19 August 2016, 10:33 PM
#29
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I really like my Pioneer head unit, hertz 6.5 fronts and Infinity 5.25 rears in my blob wagon. The sound for me is almost perfect, ok a sub would be make it a 10/10 but I don't crave one as the set-up gives a lovely warm detailed sound with decent bass. I didn't go for amps and glad I didn't as the real limiting facture is the doors as at higher volumes the door cards can vibrate annoyingly so would need a lot more work/sound deadening.
See my thread here: https://www.scoobynet.com/1004847-fo...l#post11572556
See my thread here: https://www.scoobynet.com/1004847-fo...l#post11572556
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