Thanks Michelle.

I did that - I tried to stay as calm as possible for her, hoping it would influence her a little. Will try the paper bag trick.

 

With the paper bag, let her hold it and breathe into it.
Obviously you don't want her to suffocate her so she will then be able to take it away if she thinks it is making her worse.

It normally works, it did with me the couple of times it was applied to me

 

Another quick point a nurse pointed out to some of us on a course was that no-one has ever died from a panic attack directly.

She says to point this out to people having an attack as this reassures the person that this will pass and they will be ok,with no lasting effects.So even tho' the person feels they are about to pass out or die,its nice to know in the back of your mind that it will all be ok.

Steve

 

as above, the paper bag is very effective with hyperventalation

but - i was under the impression that its purely so that the person can see their breath exhale & inhale and so control their breathing, rather than quick sharp breaths

i wasnt aware that there was any physiological aspect to it (such as the "breath in more co2" thing)

can anyone give a definitive answer ?

 

Jon

hyperventilation does indeed reduce the CO2 partial pressure in your blood. Eventually this can have serious consequences.

The paper bag technique does counteract this.

 

Jon - in laymans terms - when you breath too much or too quickly the amount of oxygen in your blood increases. You brain monitors the amount of oxygen and tells you when to breathe. If the level of oxygen gets too high, you brain will stop telling you to breathe. Oxygen levels fall quicky and your brain starts to lose the plot. Each time you take a breath you use something like 20% of the oxygen in the air you breathe. Breathing into a bag means that with each breath there is less oxygen available, so your brain manages to keep track of what it is supposed to be doing more effectively, allowing you to begin controlling the attack.

 

You must remember to put the bag over your nose but leave your mouth free, thus you breathe in through your nose (and the bag) and out through your mouth. This gets rid of the excess oxygen in your blood, then try to regulate your breathing and try to remain calm, the best thing you can do Daz is to appear as calm as a calm thing on the outside next time it happens and just sit with your girlfriend and reassure her that it's going to be ok, as it will be if she does the bag/breathe thing.

I've suffered panic attacks as a result of asthma, at the time I didn't know I was asthmatic, it was very hot and muggy and air pollution was extremely high. I was driving along a dual carriageway and couldn't breathe, I started to panic and go light headed and pulled into a parking bay. Not being able to breathe is seriously bloody scary and of course you panic more. I hadn't got a clue what was happening to me but it felt like I was dying so I called an ambulance from my mobile. The guy who answered was fantastic, he asked me loads of questions and said it sounded like a panic attack and asked me if I had a paper bag handy! I don't make a habit of carrying paper bags around but that morning I'd bought a cheese roll and it came in a nice brown paper bag, perfect. I followed the guys instructions and after 5 mins or so sttarted feeling better so asked him to cancel the ambulance which he did. He stayed with me on the phone for about 15 minutes until he was sure I was ok. Bless him! Eventually when I was ok I drove straight to my doctors where she gave me a simple asthma test - positive - then an inhaler. I've had others too but once you know what to do you can control them, they get easier to deal with and for me once I knew I could deal with them ok I stopped having them. So many things can bring them on though, I hope your girlfriend gets it sorted soon

Sal

 

Sal - If you don't breath back into the bag it will get empty very quickly and wont actually increase the pp of CO2.

 

CO2 is the key gas in this. Blood O2 does not increase hardly at all with hyperventlation as the haemoglobin is about 98% saturated at normal anyway. The only way to significantly increase o2 is to breath higher concentrations -ie from a cylinder.

The pins and needles are due to the alkalotic acid base disturbance caused by reduced co2 liberating calcium ions into the blood and messing up neural (and muscular- you may notice spasm) membrane physiology.

This is all remembered from 15 years ago so may be a bit innaccurate but I think its roughly correct.

Adrian

 

Just want to say thanks to everyone. Its a very scary thing for me to witness - god knows what my girlfriend was going through.

We'll be getting some advice from the GP later today, but I'd like to thank everyone for replying to this thread.
Scoobynet is truly a great resource for many, many reasons.

-Darren

 

Hi Daz,
sorry to hear about the Girlfriend,Hope she gets well soon

Duncan

 

Take urgent medical advice.

Panic attacks are seriously unpleasant, both for you and anyone around you. I'm not sure how dangerous they are in themselves, but you certainly don't want to get caught on the motorway or stranded too far from home or help. After a nasty one, such as fainting through hyperventilation, you can still be in shock for a few hours.

Personally, they can be caused by a number of things which you can then learn to deal with (like I won't go on a long air flight without medication) and sometimes they just come out of the blue. Just having some pills in my pocket is sometimes enough to stave off an attack.

But I haven't had one for many years now. I can spot the signs in good time, and take a chill pill, or just chill out in bed. Diazepam (Valium) has had some bad press when mis-prescribed, but I've been on it over twenty years now, and these days I take less and less, not more and more. Brilliant drug.

Good luck and best wishes,

Richard.

 

...they can be caused by a number of things which you can then learn to deal....

Blue lights in your rear view mirror gets my hyperventilating every time

 

LOL@FB

My situation was more or less similar to Sal's in the fact that I was not diagnosed asthmatic and most people thought it was just silly panic atticks.

As a result one of my old schools refused to believe my complaints of pains in my chest and breathing difficulties and made me do the cross country runs which happened three times a week. I used to come back breathless and as it wouldn't go away I would panic. The time they did listen was when I had a severe attack on a cross country run whilst suffering a mild chest infection. I passed out after going a lovely shade of blue and people realised I might acually have a problem Needless to say I was in hospital for a while and diagnosed pretty swiftly as an asthmatic.

With regards to holding the paper bag over your nose only, that is different to what the paramedics do in a lot of cases I have seen, the bag is placed over the mouth to ensure the carbon dioxide is breathed in rapidly so as to quickly increase C02 in the blood. Of course monitored very closely by the paramedics.

Michelle.

 

The idea is to rebreath the air so all the breathing orifices must be connected only to the paper bag (ie nose and mouth).

If indeed it was a panic attack then you do not die as a result.

Best to make sure it actually is panic attacks though, but in a young person without a history of cardiorespiratory disease that is by far the most likely statistically.

The typical story is faintness, palpitations, chest tightness, feeling that you are about to die, rapid respiration, large pupils, sweatiness, tremor, tingling of extremeties and around the mouth, and sometimes muscle spasms. They invariably pass quite quickly (typically within minutes) although to witness for the first time they seem much longer.

The respiratory alkalosis (due to low partial pressure of CO2) is as described above with some of the muscular/sensory efffects related to calcium. The partial pressure of oxygen is also markedly raised during an attack.

Diazepam or other benzodiazepines are indeed very effective, but in modern litiginous practice really only for short courses because of tolerance although some manage to use them sensibly.

Other options include antidepressants with anxiolytic properties, beta blockers, relaxtion techniques and various forms of psychotherapy. A valid alternative is to do absolutely nothing at all if that is what the individual wants.

 

About 45 mins ago I had a very serious shock - for the first time ever, I witnessed my girlfriend have what she describes as a 'panic attack'

Her heart started to beat rapidly, followed by rapid breathing during which she couldn't get her breath, and I have to admit for the first time in my life I felt really, really scared.

She says its nothing to worry about and she's had them in the past, but I've insisted first thing tomorrow we go to our local GP and talk it over with him, specifically so I can learn about them, how to avoid them and how to deal with them, etc...

Is there anyone on here who has experienced these before, and can give any advice ? I felt so helpless, and would dearly appreciate any information that would help.

-DV

[Edited by DazV - 2/3/2002 11:27:07 PM]

 

Stay calm first and formost. Remaining calm and in control is a major psychological effort to do as it is very alarming to see.

I am asthmatic and have also suffered from panic attacks when I first got diagnosed as a kid I used to panic at the first sign of an attack coming on - often making myself worse for no reason. If people ran around me panicking it used to terrify me more.

The usual technique is to get the person to breathe into a paper bag or such for a while so that they breathe more carbon dioxide back in and calm down. This lowers the high oxygen to carbon dioxide balance that occures with rapid breathing. Thus reducing the pins and needles effect that will be experienced. This is only if you know it is a panic attack.

However, although I am a first aider, I am not a professionally medically trained person and I would always if unsure, seek medical advice.

Best thing to do is as you are doing, go see your GP and ask for his advice.

Hope this helps a little.

Cheers,

Michelle.

[Edited by MichelleWRX1994 - 2/3/2002 11:39:20 PM]