Hi all,

Please can someone confirm something for me.
In order for an installer to issue an installation for a CAT1 installation, they would have to be VSIB approved right?

Can someone comment please?

Regards


Twobeers

Sorry, typed too fast...

Should have said:

For an installer to issues an installation *certificate* for an installation they would have to be VSIB approved?

Thanks for any clarification offered,

Twobeers

simply yes and have a stamp for certificates

Thanks AJF. It's reassuring to hear comments from others.

Twobeers

I recently bought a mk2 Golf with a CAT 1 alarm installed.

It was installed by GAP Security. My insurance people have said that they no longer except certificates from GAP Security due to the workmanship.

AJF re-certified my car yesterday (as he is VSIB approved) and the insurance people are now very happy!! :D :D

Thanks again Adrian
Andy

Eh?? Do they?!

Who you with Tango?

I wouldn't have expected that! - Better check with my insurers that the tracker is fine as that was done thru Gap too :(

The only certificate recognised by insurers is a VSIB certificate. To be valid, the installer who completes the certificate must themselves be VSIB accredited. This is easy to see as only an accredited installer has the appropriate VSIB embossing stamp for the white box on the right of the certificate. This embossed stamp should be circular, with the VSIB logo in the centre of it and the installers accreditation number round the edge. This accreditation number should also be filled in by hand in the line above where the embossing stamp goes. If the white box on the certificate is blank or has been simply rubber stamped then the certificate is not valid. Worse still, if this is the case AND the accreditation number has been filled in with some nonsense number, it is blatantly fraudulent and the VSIB MUST be notified so that trading standards may, if necessary, be called in. The worst case scenario for this is that if your insurer who gave you a policy based on there being a certified installation finds out, they may declare your policy null and void. There have been many many cases of customers being led to believe their installer is accredited and being given an incorrectly (fraudulently) completed certificate, and the VSIB have successfully in conjunction with Trading Standards prosecuted these dealers for their actions.

Max

This information is exactly what I need.
If the alarm installer *doesn't* claim to be accredited by the VSIB, but rather says they are approved to fit an alarm by the alarm manufacturer (for example approved by Cobra/Vestatec)- does this still count as a valid installation?

Will it be insurance company approved? Any 'certificate'/paperwork issued after such an installation amounts to what exactly?

Sorry for the multiple questions, but I may have a problem on my hands and need to get my facts right!

Regards

Twobeers

Twobeers,

For the definitive answer, speak to your insurance company. But IMHO, I'd find another installer who is most definitely VSIB accredited.

Nick.

If the installer is not a VSIB accredited installer, any paperwork you get will only be for warranty purposes or whatever for the supplier of whatever brand system you have, and may include some kind of 'installation' certificate, but what this certificate can't say is that the system has been installed to a minimum standard as laid down by the VSIB. Even a VSIB certificate (some of which are shipped to dealers in the box with the product) means nothing unless it is correctly filled out as I outlined in my earlier post, as only a VSIB accredited installer is acknowledged to install to the correct minimum standards.

If you do get some kind of installation certificate that isn't VSIB compliant, your insurer may accept it, but if they have their wits about them, they won't. Also, if in the future you shop around other insurers for quotes who insist on VSIB certification, you'll be stuck. One last thing, if your installer is not VSIB and you have reason to question them over faults, service, quality etc, you have no trade regulator to complain to other than Anne Robinson at WatchDog on TV.

[Edited by Max the Clifford dealer - 1/31/2002 5:25:59 PM]

Max

I hear you and agree with you. These have been my thoughts and my disagreement with the dealer that has sold me the vehicle and has had the CAT1 fitted by their chosen alarm company. But I checked the VSIB listings and the company is not on there I told the dealer that I believed they should be using a VSIB approved installer, and they replied that the installer didn't HAVE to be VSIB accredited to comply with insurance requirements. Technically I suppose they are right, but I am not happy with this mentality.

Is it an offered service for a VSIB accredited installer to inspect the system for me post-installation by the other installer and provide certification? How much would such an inspection cost?

Again, my grateful appreciation for your help,


Twobeers

[Edited by twobeers - 1/31/2002 7:41:18 PM]

ALWAYS forward the certificate (or a copy) to your insurance company - if they have a problem with it, then they should tell you then.

You have then 'disclosed' the alarm, the fitter and certification and should they have a problem with it at claim time you SHOULD be covered.

It is possible for a VSIB accredited installer to assess a system and if they feel that the installation meets the minimum criteria for VSIB standards, they can then issue a variant on the original certificate known as a renewal/compliance certificate. This may involve the accredited installer having to do a bit of work to bring the install up to scratch as he has to put his name on this certificate and in essence, it would then put him in the same position regarding possible scrutiny by the VSIB as it would if he'd installed the system himself. Prices for this would be probably upwards of £30 unless there is some work to do which would obviously push the price up higher.

Thanks Max - most helpful!

Regards

Twobeers

"Twobeers",

Further to your question regarding VSIB accreditation as beeing neccessary to write out a certificate of installation, I would like to point out that it is not.

Max, (so sorry to put you straight again old boy)incorrectly states that (quote) "The only certificate recognised by insurers is a VSIB certificate". This is simply not true.

When the VSIB was launched in the early days, I and many other installers,I'm sure got very excited at the prospects of a professional body to police our industry. One it's main aims surely was to drive up standards and make it impossible for the cowboy operaters to carry on the carnage behind some poor buggers dashboard. I didn't hesitate to jump on board and carried on for several years, beeing one of the few attendees at our regional meetings. Having worked for three alarm manufacturers in a technical capacity I knew that something needed to be done about poor installation standards. It's never felt fair to me that somebody should be out there charging more money for an alarm installed to a greatly inferior standard. This was to be I hoped the creation of a "level playing field" But to my horror as time progressed it became quite clear that it was not achieving what it set out to do. It was clearly a numbers game, anyone seemed to be able to get accreditation and installations I witnessed carried out by VSIB dealers were horrendous.

Having left several years ago I often consider joining again but see more and more companies leaving. There is mo tangible benefit for me commercially or for the end user by using a VSIB accredited installer over and above using somebody like myself who installs security products with a passion. Joining the VSIB next week would not make me a better installer, I go beyond (IMHO !) all their parameters. Furthermore to this day it is impossible to guarantee a good installation just because he has a VSIB acreditation certificate installation hung on his wall.

I respect all the VSIB companies out there who are persevering with it and it's quite possible that in the near future I will consider rejoining. If there is 100% support from the ABI members then every installer will be knocking on their door. Right know though it's business as usual. Now where was that VSIB application form ?........................................

Nick,

Good to hear another point of view on this subject. You echo the thoughts and sentiments that I heard a few times since posting this question.

Something does indeed need to be done ....

Regards


Twobeers

Toby,

I'm with Greenlight, but it's not a problem! Thanks to the power of Scoobynet, ADF (Adrian) sorted me out!! :)

Andy

Andy,

Can't insure mine with Greenlight anymore unless you can have a word, I will love you forever :x lol

Toby,

I know they still cover some Japanese cars! Might be worth a try

Andy