Seb Loeb got a suspended 2 min penalty whick would still have left him in 2nd. If this was a closer rally then that 2Min would have knocked him back to maybe 10th or more. Surely he either broke the rules or did'nt. If he did he should be out ,if not leave the results stand.

For the first event to be decided in court is pathetic. Surely we should now have people on events who are capable of making a proper and lasting decision. Any thoughts?.


Chip.

If he changed the tyres on a refuel only service as has been stated, and this was an infringement of the rules, he should be out ! no appeals ! it was FIA scrutineers that spotted this, so surely they know what they are talking about !

Right, so why was he allowed to continue. Should have been stopped there and then. Makkinen slowed after this. If some (french)prat in an appeal court agreed with Citroen then this could alter the WRC final standings which is not on really.

Chip.

Anybody remember when the 3 works Mini Coopers being booted out of the top 3 of the Monte back in 1964 or so, for a non-existant technical infringement? No, neither do I, but my Gran told me about it. Result was the a Citroen DS won the rally. On a related topic.... things to remember about this current case are:

FIA - based in France
Monte Carlo rally - mainly in France
Monaco - French really
Citroen - French semi-nationalised car maker
Seb Loeb - bejesus, he's French too

They all got together, left the window open, the rule book fell out.

Too Cynical?

I think Citroen will withdraw the appeal after a few days. France can have all the headlines as above, then quietly withdraw leaving Makka with all the points. If they go ahead with the appeal they will only end up looking even more daft

Did he actually change his tyres for new ones or just swap his old ones around. Either way a performance advantage would of been gained and it would be unfair

Scott

It was a tyre change... he should have been booted out.

The teams know the rules and have to abide by them.

I have the cynical view on this; French rally, French team and French driver.

It has to be up-held or the 2002 season will be spoilt.

Mark

I feel for Loeb to be honest, but rules are rules ...

WHY they changed tyres at the end of a leg, I'll never understand. The French eh :D

Beyond that ... he won.

But I would be very surprised of Tommi wouldn't become world champion this year. What a team !

Theo

Scott, AFAIK the tyre change was at the end of the day ... i.e. no more stages to run, so no advantage whatsoever was gained.

Hey i knew about the mini's getting lobbed out!! They excluded them because the lights were still set for driving in the uk and not for continental driving!! Hows about that then guys and gals!!!

The citroen incident didnt give him an advantage at all, but rules is rules and the 2 minutes should apply. You cant go throwing them out cos guess what...they wont come back...and guess what....under the red paint its only really a peugeot. The two manufactures are linked so can WRC afford to lose 2 teams just when its trying to gain new teams??

It happens all the time....When the Peugeot 205 T16's were leading the Lancia delta S4's in Italy one year the Lancia team complained about some small stone deflectors that been fitted to the T16's....result...Peugeot given penalty...deflectors gave no aids to the car but just protection! The car had not had them on when it was homologated so tough $hit !!!
If it cant be won on stage times they try to win in the courts and when there is so much money involved in the teams and cars who can blame them.

ok....I'm stepping off the soap box now!!

Tim :D

Citroen did after all break the rules....they should be punished...just because they had the lead doesn't change the rules.

images/smilies/mad.gif

This is plain silly.

/J

Me thinks theres more to this than meets the eye :(:(:(

555

555, can you elaborate ?

As far as I understood it all ... Subaru/Tommi were pretty sure the penalty was a given.... so Makinen backed of for the last few stages, and then was very surprised/annoyed that the organizers changed their minds ( I know I would be ). Maybe I got an information overdose, but I understood that Citroën doesn't even have to apppeal - the penalty was withdrown - so it's now Subaru that's taking it to court ?

Theo

I agree with fat bloke, oh er sorry fast bloke.
Citroen will probably withdraw their appeal in a few days. They have had the limelight, Loeb drove brilliantly, team made a silly mistake, but the rules are clear and they broke them.

I don't understand Makinen being surprised that Citroen appealed the 2 min penalty - it's pretty much been standard practice for a pro team to appeal against any penalty for as long as I can remember (Lancia did it on the RAC in about 1976 when Bjorn Waldegaard(?) went OTL on the first day). Once the team has put its money on the table and lodged an appeal the penalty has to be suspended until the appeal can be heard - even when there appear to be no grounds for the appeal succeding!

Should he be excluded? Unfortunately I can't find the event regulations on the web (or the WRC ones for that matter). They presumably give the Stewards power to impose a time penalty or a more severe penalty if they deem fit. I can't see any justification for not imposing a penalty but equally I can't (in the circumstances) see any point in imposing anything other than the smallest penalty they can. So two minutes is probably just.

Will they go ahead with the appeal? Well FB may be right - maybe they will withdraw it after a few days, once the French press has forgotten about it. Equally, they may take the view "we're only doing 7 events, we won't win the championship, we may as well chance our arm and see if we can sweet talk the appeal board round to removing the penalty". If they do appeal, I can't see them getting off scott free. They may get lucky and have the time penalty replaced with a fine. Of course, its not unheard of for FIA appeal boards to increase the penalty...........

I think the issue of French bias can probably be discounted at appeal these days - the board of appeal will consist of five lawyers, none of whom will be French.

I see that the date for the "Appeal";)has been set for Tuesday 29th Jan.................Thats if they don't withdraw early :D:D

555

They should have been disqualified right away, 2 minute penalties are for booking in/out of service etc.
But since they appealed against the penalty they take the "win" on the day, stand on top of the podium, spray the bubbly, get the photos, etc.
Then before the hearing it will all be quietly dropped when the fuss has died down.

David

On the plane back from the Monte I was sat next to the steward who noticed the illegal change. I had a chat about it with him. They have impounded Citroens wheels/tyres and shipped them to the FIA in Paris to be inspected.

Loeb at worst will get his points deducted, this may end up in exclusion from the rally or if there is found to be something illegal about the wheels/tyres it could be worse.

He couldnt understand why they changed the tyres as it's a clear rule all teams understand!

What I couldn't understand was why they changed the tyres at the end of the day ?

They were perfectly entitled to change them at the first service the following morning, before the cars started competitive driving. The only things that I can think of are:

a) One or more tyres had punctures, which could have caused problems on the road sections the next day.

b) There was some sort of technical infringement, which may have been noticed in Parc Ferme overnight, possibly leading to exclusion.

By changing the tyres, this infringement could be covered up. OK they got a penalty which they appealled against, but like others I expect this will be quietly dropped in a few days after all the celebrations and publicity have died down.

We'll probably never find out the real reasons...

JohnS,

you could be right about (b) cover-up theory....here's my angle on it:

I think the WRC rules require cars to run 2 stages on a set of tyres, with crews changing them around themselves on the road sections between. This is usually done by putting the rears on the front and the 2 spares on the rear or vice versa. Thus you have 2 new tyres of the second stage of each pair.

Loeb could have used "illegal" tyres on the last stage of the day. Say, Loeb stopped on a road section to swap his rubber around outside his Auntie Bessie's house, where "accidentally" a couple of fresh tyres fell out her front door. He'd then be off into the stage with 4 fresh boots on. As the tyres are all marked by the Judges of Fact, he'd have the lose these 2 new tyres somewhere, so he does it by "mistakenly" changing them at the re-fuel 10-minute service.

Not that there is a history of Frenchies cheating (Panizzi + recce for weeks; Delecour + cycling stages etc)...and of course it could just have been some daft mechanic thinking that he had to change tyres at every service (aye RIGHT!).

DB

:confused: Brooke - what did I ever do to you :rolleyes: Fat bloke indeed

Sorry mate ;) !
It must be my dyslexia or somthing deep in my Psycological makeup [damm those school bullies], everytime I read your username I read it as Fat Bloke...

Froggy gits they're always bloody cheating or trying it on as others have mentioned!!

Citroen withdraw appeal...

Felling smug now eh Fast :p Bloke we were right !