I'm still thinking about the Nikon, but I defo want it with the 18-70 DX lens.

Anyone know where they are in stock for a decent price?

(Eg: Jessops have them on offer for £1099 with 1GB card and lens, but none in stock:(: )

Alcazar

Yikes how on earth did Digital Canon Shopper get the Olympus E1 that high - I thought it was a pretty poor piece of kit when I tried one and considering I was a big fan of the E10 (for what it was) that's pretty bad.

tiggers.

I suppose another thing to consider is that once you choose Nikon or Canon, then that pretty much ties you into them for long run as lenses are not interchangeable.

Unless you have more money than sense!

Geezer

I suppose another thing to consider is that once you choose Nikon or Canon, then that pretty much ties you into them for long run as lenses are not interchangeable.

Unless you have more money than sense!

Geezer
Agreed, but how many lenses does an amateur photographer actually need?

I have a Canon T90, and 3 lenses, one of which is the 50mm F1.4 which came with it, and it NEVER gets used....................well, once in the last 5 years!

I reckon with the DX 18-70, you'd probably also, sometime, go for a 70-200??

Maybe?? I know my Canon 70-210 is hardly ever used, it usually has the 28-70 on it.

Alcazar

Alcazar, agreed, you don't need that many, but even 3 lenses adds up to at least the price of the body, so it's not small change if you want to change.

Geezer

Alcazar, agreed, you don't need that many, but even 3 lenses adds up to at least the price of the body, so it's not small change if you want to change.

Geezer
I'm with you on that. That's why I want the 18-70 lens, it appears to be a good first "do everything" lens. The lenses are a bit like the ink cartridge scam on printers. The camera companies would have you believe that a body, with all the electronics etc, can be made and sold for profit at £799, but a lens has to cost £500 or more ??? No way!

Like the cartridges on my ex-Epson printer, before I got fed up with it's reliability, and it went to the big scrap yard in the sky. £90 for printer and 4 cartridges, and £70 for 4 replacement cartridges?
So the printer was only worth £20?? Yeah, right:mad:

Actually, it probably was:D: Most unreliable fekker I've ever had!

Alcazar

I'm getting one but looking for the right deal.
I too have been pouring over mags but the detail they give is pretty poor compared to what's available online.
For in depth reviews, comparisons and examples, check out these two...

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/nikon_d70.html
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond70/

but a lens has to cost £500 or more ??? No way!

its all about quality and how big an aperture you need.

You want a telephoto that goes as big as f2.8? You're gonna need to spend between 600 and 1600. The amount of precision and sheer amount of glass that goes into a lens like that, especially if you look at the new nikon lenses with built in VR (vibration reduction).

I met a pro the other day with a 600mm f1.4. How much I ask? £30,000. I **** you not.

Lenses are MUCH more expensive than the bodies. Also, bear in mind its like the razors and blades analogy with SLR. They sell you the body (razor) at little or no profit, then make money on the blades.

What makes me laugh is that these Digital Cameras are retailing for more than their Film counterparts! Why? when they are cheaper to make? the answer is simple - people believe they 'should' pay more for the latest 'thing'.

DVD's cost a fraction to make compared to a VHS tape - yet cost about 25% MORE!?

We are being taken for a ride on a daily basis!

Pete

What makes me laugh is that these Digital Cameras are retailing for more than their Film counterparts! Why? when they are cheaper to make? the answer is simple - people believe they 'should' pay more for the latest 'thing'.

Don't think digital SLRs are cheaper to make than 35mm SLRs.
The R&D costs in a digital SLR are probably far higher, and the CCD's are not that cheap.

Also, the CCD in a digital SLR is FAR bigger in size terms than a compact digital camera - while they may only be the same in megapixel terms, the SLR one costs more to make (yields are probably lower, as well as lower number being manufactured).

Surely PsLewis has heard of economies of scale as well :D

Granted, there will be a premium on digital SLRs, but the D70 and 300D are breaking that barrier down. Who can blame the manufacturers for cashing in? They're recouping their R&D costs too.....

DVD's cost a fraction to make compared to a VHS tape - yet cost about 25% MORE!?

It's not the media you're paying for though - it's the software on the media (ie, the movie).

Given the software on a DVD is a perfect copy, and will last for decades (usually), the companies know you won't buy the same DVD again. With video casettes, it doesn't have the same lifetime.

Therefore, you're paying a premium for the software (the movie) given they know you'll have that copy for decades.

Which is why, presumably, you always buy movies on DVD these days, and not VHS.

The Nikon D70 uses a SONY CCD which is no bad thing.

Digital is not in its infancy, so R&D costs are largely taken care of - considering the economies of scale, as you say - they will sell millions of D70's!

Take a prime example - giving the Canon EOS300D the same Firmware as the 10D! Cost? FREE!! This essentially turns the 300D into a 10D!! and why is the 10D about twice the price?? OK, it has an alloy body - but thats about it :eek:

Therefore the EOS300D is a dummed down 10D - unleash its software and you have in your hand a 10D!!! Pity the 10D isn't up to the Nikon D70! :(

I see the panic adverts by Canon now - the NEW?! Canon EOS300D!! The D70 has Canon running for cover and trying to offload as many 300Ds as they possibly can on their way!

Pete

Take a prime example - giving the Canon EOS300D the same Firmware as the 10D! Cost? FREE!! This essentially turns the 300D into a 10D!! and why is the 10D about twice the price?? OK, it has an alloy body - but thats about it :eek:

Welcome to the real world PsLewis :D

This method of product differentiation has been done for decades. Spend the R&D money on the top-end product, and bring out the budget model with different, but limiting, firmware. Economies of scale by having the same hardware.

Do it all the time in my line of work. We sell product upgrades for $20,000 which are just a firmware enable....

Digital is not in its infancy, so R&D costs are largely taken care of

What piffle!
That's like saying cars are not in their infancy, so R&D costs are largely taken care of because the auto industry is 100 years old!

Do you not require R&D in your line of work because we still use weapons systems from the 1940's? Hmm...thought not :D

No, its actually like saying, 'Cameras have been made for 100 years, the advancements are small in comparison to the whole product' For example, my 23 year old Ricoh KR10 is 'essentially' the same as a SLR available today. The new developments are small and cheap.

In Digital technology the items get better, faster and cheaper!! The CCD of 3 years ago is now HALF the price and twice as powerful! So don't give me some cobblers about high R&D costs :rolleyes:

Nikon buy in their chips, their CCDs, their electronics, their cases and assemble it into a camera ............... Nikon have negligible R&D costs.

I remember the Chairman of Ford coming on TV and saying, "It costs the SAME to make a Fiesta as it does a Granada, to all intents and purposes"!! Shocked me then but I understand it now ........ because of the economies of scale the bits for a Granada were the same price as the bits for a Fiesta!

THEREFORE - and this is my point - it costs Nikon the SAME to make the D70 as it does the F55 ...... one costs £1000 and the other £225 :eek:

THATS what I mean about being taken for a ride!

Pete

The firmeware hack doesn't turn the 300D into a 10D, it just unlocks software features. There are hardware limitations on the 300D that cannot be changed.

Also, Canon are investing alot of money in developing their CMOS technology, so that's one of their reasons for R&D expenditure.

Geezer

No, its actually like saying, 'Cameras have been made for 100 years, the advancements are small in comparison to the whole product' For example, my 23 year old Ricoh KR10 is 'essentially' the same as a SLR available today. The new developments are small and cheap.

Ditto cars. A car today is "essentially" the same as one 40 years ago - it has 4 wheels, an engine, and gets you from A to B.

In Digital technology the items get better, faster and cheaper!! The CCD of 3 years ago is now HALF the price and twice as powerful! So don't give me some cobblers about high R&D costs :rolleyes:

...and how exactly do you think we got to CCDs which are twice as powerful? With a fair amount of R&D effort I think you'll find.

Nikon buy in their chips, their CCDs, their electronics, their cases and assemble it into a camera ............... Nikon have negligible R&D costs.

Err...yes, and you probably think BMW don't do the same? That is how most companies work these days - some to a varying degree. Our company gets others to manufacture the cases, the PCBs, the switchgear, and we just assemble it.....but, and this is the point, our R&D dept specified, designed, engineered, and outsourced this work. Much like Nikon probably did. That's still valid R&D.

I forgot, you work in a goverment R&D dept do you not? :D I have friends in BAe, and it does seem like they are working to ye olde worlde processes. 40 year product plans for example......good grief.....by the time the engineers have designed a product, most of the components they have used as obselete!!! What kind of way is that to work?

Sorry, you're wrong again - I don't work for the government or in a government department ..... we are privately run for profit!

As for the R&D, our product HAS to work - yours can fail quite happily I would guess?? So therefore ours has to be truly engineered, it must be of the highest quality and the highest reliability.

Thats why we don't recruit from the commercial sector - they don't know how to design for life, as long as it gets through the 12 month guarantee thats all that matters. Our product has to last for maybe 25 years, without actually doing anything, but then - if needed - it must burst into life and do its stuff.

Hence we have the cream of the Engineering and Scientific Community within our fences - the also rans work for the kiddie engineering companies :D

Pete

Hence we have the cream of the Engineering and Scientific Community within our fences

Cream? HAHA!
BAe, which also designs products such as those you describe, has got its fair share of lazy dumbasses. Why is it that some of the workforce are crusing to retirement, sleeping at their desks, lack innovation, etc etc.

We also recruited from BAe, and by jove, they were some of the worst engineers I've ever come across. Unless they were told exactly what to do, they were lost. True engineering? Don't make me laugh.

Engineering, by definition, is about the best solution to meet & exceed the requirements of the problem. I wonder why then, that 3 engineers from our company went to BAe to design a secondary reserve solution to a missile system, and ended up becoming the primary solution to that problem? Is it because of their fresh & commercial approach to the problem.

Maybe you might like to take your blinkers off too and stop believing that just because you work where you do, that you are "the cream" :D Some harsh commercial realities wouldn't go amiss in your workplace IMHO :D

Nikon buy in their chips, their CCDs, their electronics, their cases and assemble it into a camera ............... Nikon have negligible R&D costs.

To a certain extent for their lower end D-SLR's and more for their compacts you are correct, but their higher end cameras such as the D2H are almost exclusively designed in-house.

The D2H sports a Nikon designed CCD and shutter/buffer system that allows continuous 8 frame per second shooting with a 40 image buffer. Couple that to one of the fastest most accurate auto focus systems and ditto the metering system again designed in house and you can see an awful lot of R&D has gone into this camera.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Regards,

tiggers.

As for the R&D, our product HAS to work

IIRC, there's an awful lot of military armery that often DOES NOT work when used. Who cares if the odd nuclear device doesn't work.....there's thousands more that can be used instead....are the army/navy/airforce going to come back in 40 years time and say "Hoi, can we have our money back on that Trident missile, as it didn't work properly".

Our company makes medical products amongst other things. So I think we know a lot about engineering reliability into products.....

Don't worry tiggers, Pete works in an isolated & elitist facility that has no idea about commercial reality. You wouldn't expect him to know anything about the real world which the products he works on are designed to destroy :D

There you go again - jumping to conclusions!!

I worked for Black & Decker, you can't get more commercial than that!

Certainly medical companies are worse than the military suppliers - they rip hospitals off for £1,000's for mickey mouse products that our 'Cream' Engineers could design in their sleep ........... THEN come into work for some REAL Engineering! You should be ashamed of yourselves taking money from operations that are needed by the sick children!! You said it yourself, a simple firmware upgrade and you rip us tax payers off!! hang your head in shame!

If we had poor Engineers at our place we wouldn't have to pay such high wages would we now? You lot in the 'bung it in and hope it works' sectors wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting into the World Class Leading Scientific Base where I work - you wouldn't know quality engineering if it bit yer bum!!

Tell you what? apply to our place for a job - I think we are currently offering £45k-£60k as a starter package ...... bring along evidence of your quality engineering and make sure you can discuss FEA, Materials, Stress, Strain, etc. - then we will see if you can run with the cream, if so - expect your salary to increase remarkably quickly from £60k.

Do you feel lucky? Well do ya?

Pete

Tell you what? apply to our place for a job - I think we are currently offering £45k-£60k as a starter package

...so why would I want to take a paycut to come and work with doddering old fools like you? :D

Our company also designs "world class" products. In fact, we're No.1 in our market, and well acknowledged by the market as the best product out there....you don't get that accolade with poor engineering.

For instance, the speedy connection to the internet you have probably wouldn't exist without one of our products......

Yeah, dream on kiddie :D

Pete

Yeah, dream on kiddie :D

Pete

Ah, that elitist & blinkered attitude stands out doesn't it :D

What worries me more, is that someone that worked on Black & Decker products (not really "state of the art" products are they) is now working on atomic weapons? :D

One week designing a Black & Decker WorkMate - the next week, being accepted for a job working on atomic weapons.....hmm....sounds like the skillset required isn't that great then :D

Wait....don't tell me....you actually USE Black & Decker products to manufacture your atomic weapons? :D

Just to set the record straight. The 300D uses the same software as the 10D but in a cutdown state. That is the *only* thing the same. Everything else on the two cameras is different. OK the 300D uses the same design of CMOS sensor, but it is made using a different process, in a different fab which happens to be in a different country. Most of the electronics inside the two cameras are also totally different.

Don't forget that both Canon and Nikon also spend a lot of money designing new lens a large part of which is pure research on new glass (which isn't cheap).

Anyway Pete, just go and buy the Nikon if that is what you want, discussion isn't going to help, it'll still take good pictures. :)

Cheers

Ian

P.S. BAe quote. I was leaving a meeting recently. Heard two BAe workers there in the corridor. One said to the other: "I'm having a really tough week, I had to stay past four thirty yesterday and I doubt I'll leave for home before five today". The other sympathised and said "Yeah, I know, I hate this job sometimes". :eek:

Discussion ALWAYS helps if it stirs someone up ;) Like Imlach there - he can't resist me see? I am this God of an Engineer he always wanted to be but never quite made it .... he worships the ground I walk on ... poor soul :D

pete

Don't worry - I think PsLewis will soon have us believing that you can put the EuroFighter firmware in the Tornado and it'll do the exact same thing......

You gotta love the "cream" of the engineering talent he exhibits.

I am this God of an Engineer he always wanted to be but never quite made it ....

At least the products I work on have been shown to work.....I believe none of yours have shown commercial success yet? :D

Do you get satisfaction from seeing your products do what they were designed to do? Oh, I forgot, they've never been used...... :D