Hi Everyone

Im after some advice please, here is a brief account of the problems so far :

We moved into our new home just over two months ago.

Had a home view report (the expensive one) done on the new house before purchase.

We have now just noticed that the conservatory floor has sunk. Nothing reported in the survey just that the conservatory seem to be of sound construction.

We contacted the surveyor who came out today to have a look. He didn’t say a lot just hummed and harred and then said he would get back to us in a few days.

What, if anything can we expect back from the surveyor or is it down to us not picking it up on our viewing?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as we are not sure what to do next.


Thanks Tony

http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v16/tony4052@hotmail.com/Con/DSCF0006.jpg
Support sunk
http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v16/tony4052@hotmail.com/Con/DSCF0004.jpg
and the other side too
http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v16/tony4052@hotmail.com/Con/DSCF0005.jpg

Not very constructive I know, but LOL @ the downpipe ending 1m above the ground. Did the ex-owner have a water butt there?

Not sure why you have shown external photos of the conservatory support? What do you mean by 'the floor has sunk'?

Is the floor a concrete slab? Has it cracked?

Not very constructive I know, but LOL @ the downpipe ending 1m above the ground. Did the ex-owner have a water butt there?

Yes the ex-owner had a water butt there LOL

Not sure why you have shown external photos of the conservatory support? What do you mean by 'the floor has sunk'?

The supports have sunk and the floor is about an inch lower in places. I think they must be connected but im no builder.


Is the floor a concrete slab? Has it cracked?

yes concrete slab which has cracked and sunk in places


Tony

Tony

Are you saying that the the dwarf wall has sunk aswell the floor slab?

If so, i will virtually gaurentee that there are no foundations / footings in the ground. It will mean a complete strip down of conservatory plastic / glass. Skip everything else ans start afresh using concrete as a foundation and not soil which has been used :rolleyes:

BTW if that is a damp course shown on the second pic down then your surveyor should have told you that the Damp Course is less than "2 Bricks" depth away from the external floor level. Naughty, naughty surveyor ;)

Thanks for the info Buzzer

Ive just been in touch will my home insurance coy(legal Dept) and i have upto £50,000 of legal cover. So if the surveyor dosnt pay up, ill see him in court :D

Tony

Yes in my experience that will need a total new base, so i think you will need to bite the bullet and get a quote for the work, try a builder rather than a conservatory company as i find they are cheaper and dont try the selling you a new one lark :rolleyes:

IMO the Surveyor will squirm for a while to see if he can wangle out in some way. Its up to you, you can either revel in his self agony as he makes himself luck a complete t1t or you can threaten him with the RICS straight away........................either way you will have some fun ;)

Well the first thing to do is to read all the report including the caveats. I'd be suprised if he didn't have an excuse for not spotting the problem, not that that is any help to you.

I assume you don't know when the conservatory was put up, or by whom? Might be worth checking whether it has a guarantee.

As has been said it looks as if the conservatory is missing a proper foundation and it is difficult to say how a surveyor could have known this without digging a hole to find out. Hands up all those who would want surveyors digging holes round their property to find out how deep the foundation was?

Another non constructive word, that flashing along the roof doesn't look much good either, from what I can see it's one of those 'stick on' ones, and not lead!!
Get that done properly when/if you get it all rebuilt!

Another non constructive word, that flashing along the roof doesn't look much good either, from what I can see it's one of those 'stick on' ones, and not lead!!
Get that done properly when/if you get it all rebuilt!

Well spotted Ron.

I Aint a surveyor but i do have an HNC in Building construction and more than 20 years in the house building industry and that conservatory base would have worried me straight away. the surveyor should have flagged it as a potential problem.
Good luck with suing them but from bitter experience this is not an easy task

Hold on guys, before we condemn the whole thing. (Note I am not a conservatory expert and the following is IMHO etc.)

1. Even an expensive survey will not normally lift carpets so wouldn't spot cracks in the floor. Anything less than 5mm wide is not likely to be structurally significant.

2. The surveyor is guaranteeing that overall the property is sound and worth the asking price. In the overall scheme of things the conservatory is small beer and not worth spending a lot of time looking at.

3. What would a dpc do in this situation? Stop damp rising to the upvc and glass conservatory where it can't do any harm anyway. As long as the conservatory bricks are all below the level of the dpc in the main house then there is little to be concerned about.

4. The conservatory itself does not appear to have sunk, witness the line of mastic in photo 3 showing that the cill is at the same level vs. the house as it always has been. Presumably there is no distress, gaps or cracked glass to indicate distortion of the conservatory. If the flashing still fits then it looks like the external envelope is still sound.

It's hard to see how the lower bricks would sink with no applied load, and the conservatory has remained hanging from the house unsupported from below:eek: There may be blocks inboard of the bricks, supporting the floor, which have forced down the footing cracking the brickwork.

It may only be the floor that has sunk. If the conservatory is on footings independent of the floor then it may be possible to just put a new screed on top of the existing concrete, repoint the brickwork and forget it. It's easier and cheaper to put new concrete on top of existing than underneath:) Judging by the radiator there is no underfloor heating so this would be a cheap option so long as there is enough room to raise the skirting board on top of a raised floor (if the floor has sunk then this should fit). If not then it still might be possible to break out the floor and replace without too much disruption to the rest of the frame.

5. The length of time the conservatory has been in place is crucial in deciding whether further settlement is likely and what remedial measures might be effective.

Finding the original installer may be useful, but they may just tell a load of lies. Your best bet would be an independent structural surveyors inspection of just the conservatory. Shouldn't cost much and should be worth the money whether you decide to pursue the original surveyor, or the conservatory company under their '10 year'? guarantee.

Good luck.

so i think you will need to bite the bullet and get a quote for the work

Sue the vendor more like....

UB:D

1. Even an expensive survey will not normally lift carpets so wouldn't spot cracks in the floor. Anything less than 5mm wide is not likely to be structurally significant.

depends where the 5mm cracks are if i see long continuos 5mm cracks down an external wall it could be extremely serious



2. The surveyor is guaranteeing that overall the property is sound and worth the asking price. In the overall scheme of things the conservatory is small beer and not worth spending a lot of time looking at.

thats the basic job of Your 150 pound building society survey tony has spent money to insure he gets a better survey.
And no the conservatory is NOT small beer if it has serious problems and is ignored.
It could also damage the main building as it parts company with it
they may even have damaged the main foundations and could make the house virtually unsaleable (ok worst case senario but bad workmanship above ground usaully means worse below).
Think about it if you were buying a house and somone said "oh by the way the conservatory may need digging up and rebuilding but its not important" you would either run away or ask for a serious discount

I dont know what a "small beer" costs round your parts but if there that expensive i wont be visiting :D:D



3. What would a dpc do in this situation? Stop damp rising to the upvc and glass conservatory where it can't do any harm anyway. As long as the conservatory bricks are all below the level of the dpc in the main house then there is little to be concerned about.

except a damp carpet in the conservatory every time it rains hard especially if that down pipe isnt reconnected to the drains these pics also highlight the truly awful laying and pointing they only had three courses to make good and they couldnt even get that straight (just a thought is this a DIY job could be due to the cheap flashing above)



4. The conservatory itself does not appear to have sunk, witness the line of mastic in photo 3 showing that the cill is at the same level vs. the house as it always has been. Presumably there is no distress, gaps or cracked glass to indicate distortion of the conservatory. If the flashing still fits then it looks like the external envelope is still sound.

Lets hope this is true my personal opinion is that they have laid the internal concrete floor either to thin and either/or no reinforcing mesh and not tied in with the footings.therefore sinking between the external footings



It's hard to see how the lower bricks would sink with no applied load, and the conservatory has remained hanging from the house unsupported from below There may be blocks inboard of the bricks, supporting the floor, which have forced down the footing cracking the brickwork.

sorry i dont understand this :D:D



It may only be the floor that has sunk. If the conservatory is on footings independent of the floor then it may be possible to just put a new screed on top of the existing concrete, repoint the brickwork and forget it. It's easier and cheaper to put new concrete on top of existing than underneath Judging by the radiator there is no underfloor heating so this would be a cheap option so long as there is enough room to raise the skirting board on top of a raised floor (if the floor has sunk then this should fit). If not then it still might be possible to break out the floor and replace without too much disruption to the rest of the frame.

Screeding is not an option it will only cover the problem and crack again in time and a proper floor over the top of the existing floor with some reinforcing mesh would have to be between 6 and 9" bringing the floor above the level of the glass :O
lets hope breaking out the floor will work but it will have to be done VERY carefully (a heavy breaker could cause vibration problems and think about swinging a pick axe with all that glass about:D:D)




5. The length of time the conservatory has been in place is crucial in deciding whether further settlement is likely and what remedial measures might be effective.

Not necessarily true and certainly not crucial structural failures can take years, months or days and either show on the first day or years later
the building i work in has huge cracks you can stick your fingers in which open and close every year as the huge trees near by suck the moisture out of the ground every summer.
It is effectively breaking its back over the cellars below but it is not in any danger of collapse and being an old victorian building with very thick solid walls can take alot of punishment.

Phew that was probably my longest post ever even excluding the quotes :D:D

Not getting at you speedking honest if you think i am then sorry
I am bored and supposed to be revising for my chartwork exam for yachtmaster certificate which i KNOW I am going to fail and this has taken my mind off it :D:D

andypugh2000

Buzzer

Chrisgr31

RON

mattstant

unclebuck

Thanks all for the advice and info just waiting to see what the surveyor has to say now. Will keep you all updated.

Tony

Although I got no thanks </sob> I think it is hard to tell what sort of construction has been used from three photos. Therefore raising points for debate, further things that Tony can check so he has a more informed opinion and does not get done over by another surveyor.

Mattstant.

1. Talking about cracks in a floor which is not supporting anything and so different to a supporting wall. The floor doesn't do anything so it is an aesthetic failure only. My garage floor has cracks in, I live with them.

2. Agree with your sentiments. I wouldn't have thought that this conservatory added much to the house value compared to similar properties without.

3. Hadn't thought of that. What I meant was that if the DPM was 6" above the paving it would be directly under the pvc and so useless anyway.

"sorry I don't understand this"

The photos appear to show horizontal cracks between the brick courses. Thought this was what was meant by sinking. Otherwise the photo just shows poor pointing, not really associated with the sinking floor.

You could easily remove the glass before breaking out the floor and reinstate afterwards. If the slab has settled and cracked then a heavy breaker is not likely to be necessary:)

Most settlement occurs within a short space of time of the construction. Changes in groundwater etc. can affect buildings many years later. If this conservatory is 6 months old then little can be deduced about future behaviour. However if it is 10 years old and hasn't changed for 7 then the long term prognosis is rather better. Depends who's paying for the repairs.

Good luck with the exam.

PS from the Abbey (http://www.abbey.com/index/mortgage_home/mortgages_info_and_guides/an_services_guide/an_services_valuation.htm) website:

(I realise that the original survey may not have been by Abbey but this is probably representative of the level of info provided.)
Home View: A report on condition and value

A more detailed inspection, again carried out by a qualified surveyor.
The report will provide specific advice about the condition of the property and will identify those defects which the surveyor considers to be significant, with recommendations for repair.
The surveyor will comment on the reasonableness of the purchase price and likely future resale potential.

This is a midrange survey not a full structural survey. The surveyor may have thought that, considering the purchase price, the condition of the conservatory was not significant.

I agree Speedking get some more photos posted especially of the floor uncovered Tony.

There probably are cracks in your gagrage floor speedking but you drive over in a car and it ill suffer much more from thermal expansion and contraction (unless you have a heated garage).
The floor finishing is completely different from a habitable room which should be properly power floated or separatley screeded Tony has mentioned an inch of settlement and this is plain wrong and part of it is gut feeling on my part but also alot of experience.
An inch of settlement is definitley not cosmetic either with proper methods of construction this just shouldnt happen.

Ps thanks for the encouragemant but i am afraid i just aint put the work in for the exam shame beacause i flew through the first two easy

...lets hope breaking out the floor will work but it will have to be done VERY carefully (a heavy breaker could cause vibration problems and think about swinging a pick axe with all that glass about)...

Stihl saw??

FWIW, I had the same survey done to my property prior to my moving in.

They missed a total rewire that MEB/GPU said was life threatening :eek: :mad:
They missed a gas fire that had been attached to the supply with a rubber hose and jubilee clips :eek: :mad: no wonder we kept getting really tired whilst watching TV :mad:

The main gas supply inlet pipe (to the house) wasn't even soldered in place - it pulled straight off when we were re-doing the entire system. Shame it was right above the gas cooker :mad:

To cut a long story short, the HSE were involved, but they couldn't prove the previous owner had done the "alterations" :( - it cost me about £10K.

Thought about suing. Gave the solicitor, mortage lender and surveyor a rollocking with threats.
Came to the conclusion that life is too short to worry about this type of thing, and that it would cost me too much to take it to court - probably more than £10K.

I really hope you get it sorted, but in my experience, I wouldn't p1ss on a surveyor if they were on fire. Like Estate Agents & Solicitors, these are the real money-grabbing g1ts, who get paid alot for doing very little, but have the legal clauses that prote4ct them from any liablitiy at all.

all IMHO :)

Dan

FWIW, I had the same survey done to my property prior to my moving in.

They missed a total rewire that MEB/GPU said was life threatening :eek: :mad:

They missed a gas fire that had been attached to the supply with a rubber hose and jubilee clips :eek: :mad: no wonder we kept getting really tired whilst watching TV :mad:

The main gas supply inlet pipe (to the house) wasn't even soldered in place - it pulled straight off when we were re-doing the entire system. Shame it was right above the gas cooker :mad:

...

I've never seen a survey that did not recommend that the electrics were inspected by a qualified person.

IMHO a survey is a visual inspection (mostly on the structure) and valuation confirmation for the mortgage lender and little else. No pulling on pipes or lifting carpets etc, and the surveyor will not be qualified to inspect gas pipes or electrical cabling.

Off topic warning... AFAIC, the only reason to go higher than the minimum survey reqd by a mortgage lender is that it will give you good (formal) ammunition to reduce your offer.

If you've got half an idea about house construction then you can probably see for yourself what the surveyor will report on the basic survey. As above, they never comment on important things like electrics and gas anyway

If what you see is slightly dodgy and if the cost of an improved survey is less than the discount you can negotiate, then it's a no brainer

Well, it worked for me recently anyway...

Thanks again for all the info and advice guys (especialy speedking :))

Still waiting for the surveyor to get back to us. I rang today, however he is very busy at the moment. Yer right, he just dosnt want to speek to me.

Here are a few more pictures of were the floor has sunk.

http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v16/tony4052@hotmail.com/Con/DSCF0008.jpg

http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v16/tony4052@hotmail.com/Con/DSCF0007.jpg

:D

So looks like the supporting wall hasn't sunk (can you tell from where it joins the house?) and with a bit of luck you may get away with just replacing the floor slab. (Valid point about the dpc to consider as well.)

If the worst comes to it, and you end up being left with the problem, I reckon you could sort that with about £400-£500 and 3 tons of elbow grease ( yours, and your mates!)

Do it in summer and pay them in beer, cheap labour :)

speedking

The supporting wall has sunk with the floor m8. In the first lot of pictures you can just about see the where the bricks have dropped and theres about a half inch gap betwwen them in places.

Tony

UPDATE

Letter back from the servyor and he said the the damage ocured after they inspected the house. The guy who did the initial servey has now left the firm. So basicaly they say its not there problem.

Any more advice please guys


Tony

i think you will have to get a independent person to examine the job. you must write to the surveryers informing them of what you are doing,include the name of the new company and address etc,ask them to contibute towards the cost. once you get the independent report you can take it from there.

sorry what the time scale between the survey and these pics?

UPDATE

Letter back from the surveyor and he said the the damage ocured after they inspected the house. The guy who did the initial servey has now left the firm. So basicaly they say its not there problem.

Any more advice please guys


Tony

This stinks to high heaven of them running scared and hoping you will go away No way was this not apparent during the "survey"

Your second set of photos are even more alarming this is a serious floor and foundation failure get an idependent survey double quick.

this aint just a weekend fill in the floor project sorry

UPDATE

Letter back from the servyor and he said the the damage ocured after they inspected the house. The guy who did the initial servey has now left the firm. So basicaly they say its not there problem.

Any more advice please guys


Tony

What Bollox, i would suggest a letter back to them saying the fact that a surveyor has left there employ is irrelavent, YOU paid THEM for the service NOT the surveyor. It would be worth taking large amounts of pics at all sorts of angles and send a copy to them for their records.

Just how long has it been from when the surveyor first looked at it ?

Contained in the letter you should suggest whether it may be a good idea to appoint an independant surveyor recommended by the RICS ;)