I think that at is nonsense. Are you saying he wasn't pushing hard on the 1000 lakes? He was easily the fastest Citroen.
And what did he have to show for it? As John says, the accident was utterly predictable. They could have salvaged fourth place out of the error, possibly even third. Instead, they got zip, and cost the team a shell.

If there hadn't been the timing error I think he would have been on the podium.
You're probably right. However, the timing error did happen, and instead of living with it and conducting a damage limitation exercise, McRae threw the toys out of the pram.

Citroen have to take some of the blame for his mediocre season.
Take the blame? For what? Giving him the drive in the first place? Maybe he'd have been better off at Skoda or Hyundai?

Three times they gave him a car with crap brakes.
Shame on them. If indeed these complaints were valid, how many times did Loeb and Sainz have to put up with technical problems during the course of the year? Law of averages says that their cars would suffer just as many technical issues as McRae's. We don't know, as at no point did we hear them moaning about it. Sainz's problem on the Rally GB was particularly cruel, but not once did he make reference to it in public, which just shows the professionalism of the man.

on the lrally GB he was under orders to finish to get the team championship.
So was Loeb. That didn't stop him running a strong second, comprehensively outclassing McRae, and showing he was nominally capable of challenging Solberg for the lead early in the rally. Not bad for a driver who started the year with a reputation as a tarmac specialist and the "junior" in the team. Still, it was good that McRae did drive with the team in mind for once, shows he can do it if he tries. Mind you, if he'd got those five points in Finland, there would have been less of a need to "drive for the team" in Wales, wouldn't there? ;)

I really did think that there would be more views on this subject, especially with the amount of interest there was with the talk of there being a possibility of "team McRae" early in the season.
Talk is cheap. If Colin had wanted to do this badly enough, he could have paid out of his pocket, but it seems he wasn't prepared to. I suspect all the talk was, as much as anything else, intended to encourage potential sponsors for any such team to throw their hats in the ring. Looks as though there wasn't the response the McRaes were hoping for.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 12/1/2003 2:40:00 PM]

Just found out Alastair has got a Scoob for next year. He is doing the Production World Rally Championship with a Subaru. Good for him but I still think he could cut it at a higher level.

[Edited by Zeolite - 12/1/2003 10:15:57 PM]

All this talk of will Colin go back to subaru wont he, what about his brother alister??

When watching the GB rally on tv i did feel sorry for Alister, he's sat there in the studio being bombarded with every question under the sun about brother Colin, listened to so many comments about how bad it will be losing Colin from the sport, who's going to replace him, yet i don't remember anyone talking to him about him losing his drive with Mitsubishi. Is Alister such a poor driver that no one wants to take him on??.

No one can complain that Colin doesn't push but that seems to be his downfall sometimes, he or co driver makes a small mistake and then he seems to be like a bull in a china shop, always appears to be make or break.

When watching the GB rally on tv i did feel sorry for Alister, he's sat there in the studio being bombarded with every question under the sun about brother Colin, listened to so many comments about how bad it will be losing Colin from the sport, who's going to replace him,
Alister was paid for his participation in these shows, and must (certainly should) have expected the vast bulk of the questioning to be about his bro'. Not much point feeling sorry for him then, as he knew the score in advance.

yet i don't remember anyone talking to him about him losing his drive with Mitsubishi.
They certainly did, but he's not Colin, and as the loss of his drive was sort of a gradual thing (first Mitsi pulled out of 2003, then he was supposed to be testing for them, then they let him hang for a while before finally cutting him loose), it didn't hit the headlines in anything like the same way.

Is Alister such a poor driver that no one wants to take him on??.
It remains to be seen what happens at Subaru, but it doesn't seem as though his services are in demand. In some ways it's a shame that the "Team McRae" thing didn't come off, as I suspect a fully motivated Alister might have been able to give a battle-weary Colin a very good run for his money in equal equipment.

No one can complain that Colin doesn't push
Actually, they can. That seems to have been the way of the last couple of seasons, he seems to have spent too much time just going through the motions.

but that seems to be his downfall sometimes, he or co driver makes a small mistake and then he seems to be like a bull in a china shop, always appears to be make or break.
Yes, agreed. When he does end up with the bit between his teeth, it seems to be motivated by anger or frustration more than any genuine need or desire, and thus the usual result is an accident, with Colin quickly shooting off in a helicopter leaving a dejected and increasingly lost looking Ringer to mind the car. That, to my mind, has been one of the saddest sights of the year. :(

I guess not then.

quote "That seems to have been the way of the last couple of seasons, he seems to have spent too much time just going through the motions."

I think that at is nonsense. Are you saying he wasn't pushing hard on the 1000 lakes? He was easily the fastest Citroen. If there hadn't been the timing error I think he would have been on the podium.
Citroen have to take some of the blame for his mediocre season. Three times they gave him a car with crap brakes. on the lrally GB he was under orders to finish to get the team championship.

Back on topic. Alastair is a lovely guy and he is a fast and determined driver who deserves a decent drive. He has proven himself to be quick in whatever car he has been given and I think he would be justified to curse his luck.

I really did think that there would be more views on this subject, especially with the amount of interest there was with the talk of there being a possibility of "team McRae" early in the season.

Colin let himself down in a big way in Finland. As soon as i heard he had received a time penalty, i was waiting for the inevitable big shunt, it was so predicatable. No one wants a hot head that cant cope with misfortune, it's too damn expensive to pay a driver £5million and then have to pay for a smashed to pieces £500,000 car because he loses his temper.

Do i feel sorry for Alister, not in the least, he was given an oportunity in the WRC and didnt blow the doors off his team mate, so he isnt anything special. Give someone else a go at it.

Greasemonkey, for once I completely agree with you!

The best thing Colin can do is have a year away from WRC and take stock of things. The Dakar will be very interesting as I don't know if his temperament will suit such a long event. Does he have the necessary mechanical sympathy?

As for Alister - a smashing bloke, but that doesn't make you quick and it doesn't make you a champion. He has had a good crack at WRC events but has never shone. Maybe he should give something else like Rally Raids a try for a year. I think he would prove more competitive than Colin. It would be interesting to see.

Greasemonkey. I agree with you about Colin throwing the toys out of the pram on the 1000 lakes. I was pointing out that he was TRYING which seemed to be in some doubt. As I said he was fastest Citroen at that event. No Question
As regards Sainz and Loeb not having mechanical problems. Well I am sure they did but not the repeated brake problems that Colin did. It is like trying fight with one hand tied behind your back.
At the end of the season Colin ended up a few points shy of Gronholm. I don't hear any criticism of his season!

Alastair has had 3 seasons in very poor cars. Hyundais and the 2002 Mitsubishi were never going to set the stages on fire no matter who you were. Give him a good car and he will get results.

...agree with you about Colin throwing the toys out of the pram on the 1000 lakes. I was pointing out that he was TRYING which seemed to be in some doubt.
Never implied otherwise. My exact words were that he spent too much time just going through the motions, not that he never tried. Surely you must be asking yourself why, if he was able to show a clean pair of wheels to the other two Citroens at the 1000 Lakes, why he wasn't able to do so to the same extent at any other point in the season? You might be able to ascribe some of it to a poor driver/co-driver working relationship, but that one's ultimately down to Colin as well.

As regards Sainz and Loeb not having mechanical problems. Well I am sure they did but not the repeated brake problems that Colin did.
Repeated? Even if we take this complaint at face value, it was three rounds. If you remove Finland on the grounds that he was going okay, what was he doing at the other ten?

At the end of the season Colin ended up a few points shy of Gronholm. I don't hear any criticism of his season!
Probably because nobody's started a "Marcus Gronholm is cr*p"-type thread. I'd say that the principle difference between McRae and Gronholm was that Marcus managed to win three rounds and led several others, something McRae never looked likely to do. Colin had the use of what is, according to the results, the best car in the championship, and which itself was able to win four times in the hands of its other drivers. In these terms, Colin under-performed.

Zeolite

what is the "production world rally championship" is it like the junior wrc??

Erm, Group N mean anything to you? ;)

So its like a privatear entry then?? does it run with the WRC rounds??? I know years ago when "rally GB" used to run in Chatsworth and Donington there used to be group "n" cars running.

Sorry to be thick about the subject

So its like a privatear entry then??
Basically. McRae's is (It's being run by RED, the preparation firm which ran Mark Higgins' Renault Clio in this year's BRC), and Martin Rowe's was this year.

Toshihiro Arai had a certain amount of "works" support this season, and it's probably fair to say that Rowe's car benefitted from some when he started doing so well.

Apparently Mitsubishi are going to run some of their junior drivers in Group N Lancers next year, so again they're going to have an element of works backing.

does it run with the WRC rounds???
Yeah, the PCWRC runs on seven of the sixteen WRC rounds. It runs on a similar basis to the JWRC, in that the registered cars are seeded as a block and run together on the road, behind the full WRC entrants and FIA seeded drivers. Also, like the JWRC, they score their own points and have their own dedicated points table.

I know years ago when "rally GB" used to run in Chatsworth and Donington there used to be group "n" cars running.
There still are. There were quite a few Group N cars running in this year's Rally GB, as indeed there are every year. The difference between the WRGB and the events running as part of the Production WRC is that because the Rally GB is a JWRC counting rally, the Grp N cars are seeded in the "amateur" category at the back of the field.

The Group N regulations have changed quite a bit over the last few years. In the 90's and earlier, Group N cars almost literally were production category cars with roll cages. They had to keep much of their roadcar interior (including the back seats), standard gearboxes, almost completely standard engines, standard brakes and so-on.

They're now allowed much greater levels of modification. They can remove the unnecessary interior trim (back seats, carpets etc.), replace the standard roadcar gearbox components with strengthened dog gearkits, make quite extensive changes to the engine management and so-on, to the extent that they're probably as fast, maybe even faster, than the old pre-'97 Group A cars, although their roadcar suspension components mean they're not as physically strong.

Thanks greasemonkey

Thanks gm, NZ had it's own star in the PWRC who unfortunately isn't with us anymore... I remeber he commented that it was a drop in power from what he was rallying when he joined the PWRC (I'm not sure what class that was in).

Greasemonkey;

I thought Martin Rowe's PWRC Impreza was being run by David Sutton Cars, not RED? I know it was Prodrive prepared, but I'm sure that David Sutton Cars were running it for him?


Edited to say sorry - misread what you said!! Apologies!


[Edited by Mr October - 12/4/2003 9:40:53 AM]

quote "no quote" unquote

Can't beklieve what is being said on this thread...

"Is the PCWRC like the junior wrc?" Christ, do you know anything about rallying or what?

No need for that really, was there?

A bit harsh alright.

Just to clear things up....

Former Mitsubishi WRC works driver Alister McRae has signed for the R.E.D (Rally Engineering Development) team to contest the 2004 FIA Production Car World Championship.

R.E.D, the Widnes-based rally preparation business, has vast experience of the WRC, having previously run cars for Ari Vatanen, Didier Auriol and... shock horror - Colin McRae.

The team is planning to run a two or three car team in the 2004 PWRC. McRae has not driven a Group N car competitively since 1992, when he drove a Group N Ford in the British Championship and entered the RAC Rally in a Group N Subaru Legacy.



[Edited by tucker101uk - 12/12/2003 4:54:08 PM]