Please don't become one of the 'roundabout brigade'...I see these sad f**kers every sunday and its enough to make you weep. There are so many more interesting things they could be doing on a bike, but instead they choose to park up at the nearest roundabout and watch each other going round.....and round....and round....

Road bikes are for riding. Knee sliders are for racers.

(flame suit on, just in case)



[Edited by andrew6321 - 10/7/2003 11:15:20 AM]

I have been passed my test for a good 4 months now and I have clocked up about 1000 miles on my 99T Yamaha R6 since I bought it. I have been out with bikers from all different backgrounds but I am nowwhere near getting my knee down or pulling safe wheelies as I am too scared of breaking my lovely bike.

The reason for this post was to get some feedback from all you more experienced mad bikers who scratch their sliders on every corner cause thats where I want to be eventually. Just how lond does it take to get your knee down ?????????

you need to approach it in a methodical way, find a roundabout which you would normally take at 40 mph and thats one you will be taking at 45-50 with your knee on the floor, but Kneedown is about body position, not just speed. Yuo need to learn how to hang off before the entry and point your knee right out and get used to the feel of it as the bike is much more twitchy. Expect it to take about 6 weeks, but make sure tyour tyres are hot with half a dozen laps 1st before attempting it.

Ash

Said it before and I will say it again :D

In a nutshell try this.. ( works for me anyway )

1. Ensure balls of feet are on the pegs and not the sole
2. Set yourself up early for the corner with your arse hanging off one cheek of should do and your other knee tucked well into the tank.
3. Push down through the pegs with your feet, especially the outside one as this will help keep the bike stable
4. Accelerate through the turn and stick you inside leg out and back topwards the rear of the bike
5. Make sure you look through the turn the bike will go where you look.
6. Hope for the best and wait for that scccrrrraaaappppppeeeeee..

Enjoy and take it easy.......

need to watch tho and not go too low and have everything scraping, done that once before :D

wheelies are harder. its easy to get them up in the air, but newbies practicing them its hard as it takes balls to keep it going once its up.

im a wheelie king on my old fzr 600 :D

-------------------------------
Expect it to take about 6 weeks, but make sure tyour tyres are hot with half a dozen laps 1st before attempting it.
-------------------------------

Ash,
don't know what tyres you are running, but 1 sighting lap is all that's required to heat up the tyres and check for crap. 6 laps is silly. Not only that, the police can pull you after 3 anyway. Not to mention the fact that the poor chap will get dizzy and probably fall off anyway ;) :D

S/

but just remember, what if ur tyre loosed grip....

£400 new plastics (at least)
£40 new crank casing
£50 new peg and brake lever (at least)

bashed exhaust duno how much, depends what ur running.
mirror ****ed
bent handle bars.

and that is the list for it sliding along the ground if u lowside it, now if u high side it, it will be about the same. but the bike just doesent stop at the edge of the road, it goes right through the kerb and the lampost, well the kerb and lampost will go through it.

just to warn u ;)

I'd concentrate on learning to ride properly before you worry about near pointless stuff like wheelies and getting your knee down!!! Whilst these things are fun, neither really progress your riding and with just 1000 miles under your belt, I'd recommend your learn to ride quickly and most importantly, safely first!!!

Stay safe!!!

Matt :)

Ash,
don't know what tyres you are running, but 1 sighting lap is all that's required to heat up the tyres and check for crap. 6 laps is silly. Not only that, the police can pull you after 3 anyway. Not to mention the fact that the poor chap will get dizzy and probably fall off anyway

I was at track day at Mallory on Tuesday and we were all advised by the organisers to ride a min of 4 laps (approx 4 miles) before winding it on at this time year
Cold slides are no fun.

I agree about the sighting lap, but I'd prefer not to leave cold tyres to chance.

I am using D208 GPs at the moment BTW

I disagree with a lot of of this:

Learning to get your knee down does actually serve a useful purpose. You learn to trust your tyres, you learn how much lean angle you have available, you learn about hanging off. All of which contribute to making you a safer rider. I've had this argument a million times (well it feels like it anyway)

A sportsbike tyre on dry clean tarmac will not loose grip unexpectedly. You'd have to be a monkey on the throttle or grab a handfull of brake to ming it up.

Trackday organisers will always err on the side of caution to avoid expensive law cases. 4 laps seems a bit excessive. My only twitchy moments on roundabouts have been caused by diesel slicks and gravel rather than cold tyres.

I can't tell the originator of this thread what to do or what not to do, but if he wants to learn to get his kneedown, then it's best if he gets some advice about it beforehand.

Simon

The D208GPs are awesome tyres when they are warm. I am only riding in the inters so there are much more experienced riders than me on here, but I was entering Gerrards (after braking) @100mph and riding it through and exiting @105mph (no one was passing me on that corner). The knee and the toe slider of my boot was firmly on the deck for the duration of the corner (my feet were well back on the peg). I didn't have one scary moment due to the tyres but others riding on pilot race and 010s were getting slides at slower speeds than myself (i was passing a few on that corner, but the bigger bikes had the drive to pass me on the straights).
These tyres will warm on the centres but stay cold on the edges. IIRC the Pirelli Corsas have a special banding within the carcass arrangement to distribute the heat to the edges of the tyres.
Oh, I understand tyrewarmers take up to 90 minutes to get the tyre up to temp.

Ash


[Edited by DRUNKNORGY - 10/6/2003 11:48:34 AM]

I've got to agree with Matt on this - after only 1000 miles there are far more important things to learn. Yes, getting your knee down is a good way to learn lean angles and the limits of yr bike, but it isnt that helpful to a novice. But then perhaps he prefers to learn tricks rather than ride fast. So up to him.

The only time I ever got my knee down was when I fell off a VFR800 in front of the shop ;) :D

I agree with Matt on the point of additional training and also that there are more important things on the list, but his original post did ask the question 'how do I GMKD' any tips ?.
He is looking to do tricks and I was IMO offering the best advice for someone wanting to give it a try and reduce the chance of risking binning it with silly mistakes (like riding on cold tyres). How else do we learn ?.

i remember doing something really stupid once when getting my knee down, (about this time of year after some heavy rain a few days earlier) must of done some 5 or 6 laps at around 70ish round my favourite roundabout, i then let adrenaline get the better of me and decided to try and get my left knee down exiting the roundabout :rolleyes: one patch of gravel in the middle of the road later and i was pushing a very sorry looking bike home :(


kev :)

Interesting reading these comments and will try to put into practice some of the tips!!

Was at Cadwell last week and managed to get my toe sliders down (only on right handers though!!)but not the knee. Should I be close if I actually manage to hand off the seat rather than being in the middle?Also think need to jut the knee out a lot more but it does feel weird !!

Cheers.

If the toes are 'wrapped' around the pegs ZX6R) I can get the knee down long before the toe sliders touch down. It sounds very much like body position. Assume the position before you tip into the corner to prevent weight shifting unsettling the bike.
If your doing a righthander, Divide the right hand edge of your seat with the crack of your arse :D and you will be hanging off enough, Rest your left forearm on the tank which will help steady the steering, Swivel your right knee outwards and really, really, really (you get the picture);)stretch it towards the road (like you want it to go there). You can practice this body position and also your countersteering on a straight stretch of road first before trying it on a corner. The steering is twitchy in this position and this will help your brain to make sense of it before you practice for real.
The weight balance of the bike is controlled on the throttle and its crucial that you keep the weight off the front wheel by using a neutral to very gentle acceleration to achieve this (but not negative). You need to be as smooth as you can with no sudden direction changes or weight shifting mid corner.
Don't under any circumstance reach for the front brake when cranked over or the front end will wash out, and adversely don't attempt it in a low gear (to start with ) as you will risk a highside. Typically my powerband bites at 10k and I will be in a gear to be between 5k and 9k when cranked over as it gives me a margin of error with the power delivery.
Ride into the corner in the middle of the lane as it will give you a safety margin, if you see contamination on the road, or its dusk, don't attempt it.
If the bike drifts towards the inside of the corner, hold a neutral throttle and put gentle pressure on the left bar, hold the throttle in a neutral position. If the bike starts to run wide and drifts towards the outside, wind on the throttle a bit and push on the right hand bar. Input on the bars will offer more control on the steering than throttle input or weightshifting.
As your confidence grows over time, your speed will climb and as a natural progression, the bike will lean over more getting your knee closer to the floor. You can make the angle more accute by leaving a little later to tip in. If it doesn't happen, its no big deal. Its more important to get the method right and be comfortable with the riding position and above all - be smooth in you riding style.
Ride the same roundabout for long enough and you will get there. Just practice, practice practice.
Here is a pic of me exiting the Melbourne Hairpin at Donington last year (Its a tight corner and i was in second gear @ about 40mph)
The faster corners are just the same thing but scaled up. the road surface needs to be smooth or it will shake you out of your seat.

Ash
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwDUAicW0UtUVAvTMyzdW!K9vgXgRcpbwcmREUBJpEB!n0DdB *DtHYvqyQZUvbvZDWpl7b0l38EwrI2plc88D8Yah**tYTHe!TR 1u*zwdvMe9tmzkVNbGw/Donington2002.jpg?dc=4675392973905130014


[Edited by DRUNKNORGY - 10/6/2003 10:30:24 PM]

Cheers for the advice Ash - will give it a go if we get any more nice weather !!! on't fancy it in the wet.

Nice picture by the way!

John.

On chicanes,its a waste of time and it will slow you down, but on the faster stuff, it gives me much more confidence.
Others may have different methods but this works for me. Safety is always 1st priority and if the conditions don't look right don't take the chance.

Ash

FFS forget about knee down at the moment.
1000 miles and 4 months of riding an R6 - you should really concentrate on riding fast/safe first. The fastest guys on the road are the boys in blue and have you ever seen a knee down from them ? Knee down is used by racers to guage their angle of lean as they run very high pegs, us non-racers are given pegs with hero-blobs that do the same thing. If you find your pegs restrictive then go racing.

As most people have said, if you focus on going fast first the rest will follow.

I have to say that I do not go for my knee down (probably cause I can't!) but does dragging the pegs count ?

Just remember, focussing on something other than hazards/road surface etc may shorten your biking time significantly.

LOL, each to their own, He asked, I answered. I use it very rarely on the road now as I don't feel the need to prove anything to myself, It is a party piece, as are wheelies, Why do I do it ?, because I can ;).

If you are riding onto the hero blobs, then your pretty close to grinding out the Can(s) which is on dodgy ground. The kneedown position isn't just used as a lean indicator, it is used to lower the centre of gravity whilst maximising the grip available (keeping the bike itself more upright where the contact patch of the tyres are wider). This is why the racers do it and they only started using kneesliders in the late 70s early 80s when they realised that the knee could also be used as a gauge.

The biggest critics are usually the ones who can't do it :rolleyes: . Learning how to do it has certainly improved my ability to control the bike in the corners at speed, but I rarely come across corners on the road which warrant it.
The reason why coppers are quick is because they use the width of the road to extend their line of sight, which in turn allows them to plan their line better.

If you want to ride faster on the road in general riding, without doubt get some advanced training. If you want to GYKD, see above ;)



[Edited by DRUNKNORGY - 10/7/2003 12:30:43 PM]

Ash - I dont think anybody is having a go at you - he did ask and you are giving him the info he wants - which is great.

But I do think we have a duty (if small) to persuade him to ignore the tricks at this stage and learn to be a good rider. I agree getting your knee down can help understand the bike better, but all in good time.

I finally grind my hero blobs but it's taken a while - not doubt as u say I could probably get my knee down, but then again my vfr probably has lower pegs than the race reps.

Having said all that I would love to be able to wheelie properly and scrape my way round roundabouts, and if I could, I would !!!!

I'll get off my high horse then, No offence taken or intended ;), The R6 is a race rep, He got it for that reason. I agree wholeheartedly with the comments that with 1000 miles he has a lot to learn, but riders with substantially more than that have binned their bikes trying for knee down because they were using the wrong technique. He is an adult and knows his own mind. If he's determined to have a go, I would just like to see that he is approaching it with the right frame of mind, discipline and technique. It will probably take him a couple of months to achieve it in any case.......Practice, Practice,Practice :D

woo hoo..

Got my knee down for the first time yesterday on a roundabout. Tyres nice and warm, constant speed 35-40, counter-steered and just hung off it like a monkey and hey presto scratched up slider!!!
You've just gotta have the nuts and confidence to get it down that bit further i think..

Gonna get some titanium sparkies ordered now!!

Cheers for all your posts guys. I have been away of late and have not been able to reply to your helpful comments.
I know that I only have 1000 miles under my belt (soon to be 1300 miles of the weather is nice this weekend, a nice long run over to Cumbria me thinks), but, the reason why I bought the R6 was to ride it the best I could and in the 2 and a half months I have passed my test I have been told by my fellow bikers (the majority of which get their knees down and have to wait for me at every junction) say that I have improved four fold. My confidence is sky high at the moment (probably a bad thing) so I will do the roundabout thing next time I am out. All I want is the SCCCCRRRRAAAPPPEEEE then I will be happy. HAPPY BIKING !!!

Experience doesn't tell us when to go fast, It tells us when not to. I'm not saying for one minute, don't go out and enjoy yourself, but to use a bit of self restraint in the name of self preservation. You wan't to ride like the racers (we all do).
Always err on the side of safety and if all of the jigsaw pieces aren't in place, give it a miss. I've seen a few try it now, get touch, go out the next day and binn it trying to recreate that moment as they were trying to hard.

You may go out to get a touch and just not get there, its no big deal and makes good practice. The more miles you clock up, and the more you practice hanging off for KD, the more fluent you will get with it and the easier it will be to drop into the position. Just don't try too hard and you'll get there in the end.

You can do 20 years of riding but if you don't hang off as part of your riding normally, you will feel as green doing it as someone with 3 months of riding experience.

All practice is good at the end of the day.

Ash

Well said Ash and true, after getting my knee down saturday I tried to have a go again yesterday and it just wouldn't happen so I left it and will try again another day when it all feels good..
I'm still learning alot myself at the moment, only passed my test in August and I've done 2500 miles on my K2 Gixxer 600, so I was quite chuffed to get my knee down seeing as though I know other riders that have more experience that still can't manage it..

Yes indeed pure roundabout surfing is a little sad however for people who wish to learn its the best place to start apart from a track day of course.

If any of you are from down south and wish to go on some cracking rideouts and learn said skills then tag along with us one Sat / Sun. Here are some pics from the last few weekend down essex way. The burnham bends & Braintree roundabouts are very good areas for practising.

http://www.richard.neale.btinternet.co.uk/braintree/Braintree.htm