http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=24526&s=8

Progress.....What a disaster for the sport!

I fear someone is going to be very seriously hurt due to this, the Gravel crews fulfill a VERY important role in safety. We are now going to see reccee in the morning and stages in the afternoon, cramming yet more spectators into an even smaller area.

Codriver loads will go up masively and no one will be checking the pace notes, a disaster waiting to happen.

We now no longer have 3 car teams, so where are the up and comers going to learn and get factory support? [edited to remove potential slander]

So we now have top drivers out of work, gravel crews out of work, the engineers who build/service the gravel cars out of work.............

The TV show will be poor with only 12 efective cars to cover too......

[edited to remove potential slander]

No one in the sport wants this IMHO. images/smilies/mad.gif

[Edited by webmaster - 9/11/2003 3:08:13 PM]

You're right John, this is stupid. As you say the gravel crews do, IMO, a fantastic job. In passing the info back to service for the team to make their final tyre choice for stages that may be a few hours away. We, as spectators and the Teams, as employers expect the crews to do battle giving 110% and most of the time we get it. To do this safely they must have ALL the help they can get and removing the gravel crews will severely hinder them. In an age where health and safety rule, there needs to be a re=-think ny the bigwigs in charge.

The new raft of rule changes approved today also means that gravel crews will be banned, while the 'Milles Pistes' recce system will also be implemented. Crews will only be allowed two recce runs of each stage, with the second round of these runs to take place on the mornings of the special stages themselves. All recce runs will have to be done in either standard road cars or the actual rally car

So whats this all about then ??
I thought that the present set up of the WRC was to cut milage down on the event, now they are saying they have to recce that days stages the same morning ? how is that possible ?

Andy

by not running special stages in the morning. Isnt spectating going to be thrilling. :rolleyes:

Well John have to agree on your post. God remember the old days of RAC , Kill kilder, grizzy Grizdale (Memories) now look at it . It will soon be down to just a superspecial and no stages at all. . By the way are you out on the Bulldog this year ? if so im Marshalling so will look out 4 you.

Steve

Can't see how this helps any part of the sport.

How many stages can you run in the afternoon? Competitive mileage will be tiny. This means that it will be nigh-on impossible to spectate at more than one stage in a day.....(although it appears that spectators on the Rally GB are already considered a nuisance).

TV coverage will hardly be spectacular with 12 or 14 cars to look at (at the start of the rally). There will be less time to edit the footage with all the racing occuring in the afternoon, so will we have hashed-together programmes, or only get to see the rallying after midnight?

The biggest supprise is the massive U-turn on the 3-car rule - will Freddy Loix have a drive next year? Is there any incentive for a team to trial a new third driver?

The rallies will become sprint events next year, which is likely to mean more on-the-edge driving, but which also increases the risks. Whereas now a 10sec spin may be recoverable now, next year it could ruin your rally.

Why-oh-why-oh-why have they done this?? What was wrong with the current format?

Comment (http://www.wrc.com/en-GB/Features/Features/001/2003_R_AUS_ThirdDrivers.htm)

I agree to most of the comments (as indicated in another post as well). You can argue for and against certain rules, but I believe that there are reasons to be very concerned about the fact that the teams themselves cannot make their voice heard! Is this what actually is preventing more manufacturers to join the WRC? Also, when the rules changes every third month, how can the teams really be able to run an effective setup?

Unfortunately I am not able to remember the source, but there are "already" discussions on 2005/2006 rules and among the things that are discussed is to move to non turbo engines for the WRC...

STIVII

Disaster :( lets hope the works teams still choose to run 3 or 4 drivers even if they don't score manufacturer points.

I seem to remember that a couple of years ago it was only 2 nominated drivers per team, although they could rotate drivers depending on events.

As for the recce system :( what a mess

Can't see why the FIA want to introduce the new driver rules but some of the changes seem to be to compress the gegraphical area that an event covers - cheaper in theory ? However this then results in multi use of stages which is starting to change the whole face of rallying; ie maybe 15 ? stages or so are run but these are 3 different stages run 5 times ? Pretty dull really compared to how it used to be and even compared to what happens at present. I fear for the long term health of rallying. This might again be changes for the benefit of the ultimate goal - every stage of a WRC round is broadcast live. If the stages are close enough will this make televising it easier ? However even DR did not exactly give the new FIA proposals positive comments in MN.

some of the changes seem to be to compress the gegraphical area that an event covers
Not so with the recent rally in Oz - the crews were complaining about the mileage they were doing between stages so they could get to/from the central service area.
Centralised servicing was a good idea in principle, but the limitations it has placed on the possible routes has meant repeating stages, and in Wales at least, traffic problems.
I've no idea of the cost, but I should imagine that it wouldn't have been impossible to have had two service areas per day. However, the new rules have put paid to that.....

Could it be that the WRC will have less competative mileage per event than many national rallies??? :rolleyes:

John,
I think many people didn't want to just sit back and accept it, more that the ordinary person believes that their opinions will just be ignored however loud a noise they make.
Things like split times, Virtual Spectator b8llx is, I think, not of huge interest to the vast majority of spectators - I coudl eb wrong here !
If FIA want to make changes then unless enough of the people that they think matter complain eg manufacturers or other companies / bodies that make the FIA loads of dosh such as TV companies, then they'll just go ahead with their changes and stuff everyone else - "We know best" they'll always say. Rule changes are inevitable but they should be made after consultation and should be consistant and in good time - making one change (the 3rd driver rule) and then 2 months later making another change (the 2 driver rule) is not what the FIA should be doing but they've got the series and they do what they want with it.
Some of what we (the spectators) want might not be what the FIA OR the manufacturers want. Lots of spectators think the compressed geographical area (wonder if the Oz rally is an exception here ?) is a bad idea but manufacturers and the FIA seem ot think this is fine. Spreading stages out over a reasonably wide area seems a good thing but this seems to be history now, mores the pity. Cramming a few stages, used multiple times, into a restricted area doesn't appeal to me very much.

You are probably right andy re most people not bothering to protest about things.

Though must not question the FIA or its staff, eh Simon.

Do you not have any opinion on these changes?

Maybe he chooses to go about things in a different manner and put more subtly (and often more effective) influences in place?

I know what my feeling on the changes are but will choose to express them in a different manner..

Paul..

ah, sorry, i thought this was a Public BBS where we discuss things.

this is what Marcus said before the rules were introduced.

http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=23674&s=8

World rally champion Marcus Gronholm has threatened to quit the sport if changes proposed by the FIA, the governing body of world motorsport, are introduced as early as next year, according to this week's AUTOSPORT magazine.

The proposals outlined by the FIA following the World Council meeting last week would change the face of world rallying beyond recognition. The most significant change would see the events run over four days instead of three, with the recce being incorporated into the mainstay of the rally action.

Gronholm believes that the ideas are a step too far. "This is really just bullsh*t," he said. "I can't see how any of this could be a good idea. Take the idea of doing our reconnaissance in the rally car – really? It's crazy.

"If we are supposed to be doing the recce in our rally car, we'll end up listening to the engine and looking that the car is doing on that stage. It's just a crazy idea. Who thinks these things up?"

Gronholm has said that he could bring his career to a premature conclusion, if the rules are introduced.

"I feel from my heart about this," he said. "I feel it is wrong, and if the changes are made then I do not want to be part of the sport."

Indeed.. you may choose to discuss things but if someone else chooses not to, why bait them?

bait them? i didnt think asking someone a question was that politically incorect Paul. :rolleyes:

And now Colin McRae's out of a drive for next year. Madness.
:(

WRC has got progressivley worse in the last 3 years or so. I don't even bother watching it on TV anymore.

Perhaps theres room for a rival series. Bring night stages and all that.

Wasnt there talk of new blood and new greater TV exposure. God knows it is SOOOOO much more interesting than F1, but since F1 has dolly birds in the pit lane it is percieved as glamorous and prime time... This latest episode is adding even more nails in the coffin...

As a Welshman I also think it ABSURD to have the Rally GB held in a bit of Wales. If I elaborate I'll start swearing; suffice to say I havent been since that decision which is sad & ironic...

D

max mosley and co are rally's grave diggers .
as we tell,from that side of the chanel,it's the english mafia. (sorry) .the alone goal is to make money,and next elections arrives for max.
to win them he must content the most electors,and promize more wrc rallies: japan,mexico,so the idea is to have more rallies for the same price.
i agree with you: we must make noise to tell stop max,look at the formula one and let rally quiet

I must say this has realy got to me. Rallying has been my sport for nearly 30years, its the only sport I enjoy and follow. The changes up to this year I was not happy about but everyone was saying they would bring rallying into the mainstream with superb TV coverage.

IMO the opposite has happened and these latest changes are an absolute joke.

The next step being discussed by the FIA is to ban Turbo's. What after that four wheel drive?

This a quote from yesterdays FIA meeting.
Some organisers regard the proposal to practise the stages on the day of the rally - so-called “1000 Pistes” practising - as unworkable.

Unless we stop this rot our sport will die.

Lee



[Edited by logiclee - 9/17/2003 3:09:07 PM]

and today Hyundai have anounced they are leaving the sport at the end of 2003.

http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=24634&s=8

So there goes another 2 cars from the field.

:( Sad news

There's going to be few drivers out of work in 04

:(

Sad to see another team leave :( (I wonder if they are thinking of coming back in 2006 if they do introduce the no-turbo rule, or is it coincidence?)

The other thing I don't understand is that the FIA proposals are largely meant to reduce the costs of running a WRC team. I would presume the idea would be to attract more manufacturers in.

However, the expansion to 16 rounds actually puts up the cost, even allowing for the reduction in costs of running a full gravel crew etc. Ford has already said that it is not sure whether it has the budget to run all 16 rounds. What's the point in that?

Chris

Chris, the FIA has set fees for each round irespective of how they are constructed. The FIA is on record earlier in the year stating it was looking at improving its finances.

The only winners in this whole mess are the FIA, as they now get to charge everyone an extra 2 rallies worth of fees.

The teams dont want this, the drivers dont want this, even David Richards doesnt want this.

To quote DR from Autosport "If you're now saying that the Presidents of the FIA and the Raliies Comission can make decisions for the WRC, then this is a serious situation for the series"

Well maybe the FIA could have the WRC events on the monday after each Grand Prix that would mean that the cars would stay clean and the spectators would either have gone home or be so far away from the action that they would no longer be a problem.
Then the cost of spectating could also go from the subline to the ridiculous ie £150 for three day pass to £500 for a granstand seat only joking!!

Regards

John

[edited to remove potential slander]

I don't know if it will make any difference, but I think we should make a much noise about this as possible. Letters to Autocar / Motorsport News and the FIA?

I've seen some of Corrado's comments, but I think it is important that the other team bosses make their feelings known too.

Chris (now utterly depressed) :(

[Edited by webmaster - 9/11/2003 3:10:30 PM]

[edited to remove potential slander]

I don't know if it will make any difference, but I think we should make a much noise about this as possible. Letters to Autocar / Motorsport News and the FIA?

Waste of time. Since when has anyone in the curent WRC structure listened to the fans? Slipery slope that started a few years ago that most people sat back and accepted. Some people have been saying things that go against the grain and the way things are progressing and have been shot down in flames for being stuck in the past. Are those of you who said nothing and accepted all the changes happy now? You should be because you got what was obviously coming, and its going to get even more limited until live TV of short stages plus everyone sat in front of their PC's going ewww arrr look at the split times, is the only thing left.

How to screw up a sucessful sport in one easy lesson.

I should shut up now, i havnt been to bed in 28hrs so am probably talking bollox. ;)


[Edited by webmaster - 9/11/2003 3:11:43 PM]