nuff said..

Must do better...and brake before the corner. :D

Surely surely surely that must be the final nail in his McLaren career.

How much more evidence does Ron need to see before he realises that employing nearly any other driver has got to be better than Coulthard.

Here's hoping

tiggers.

Have to say that he should have overtaken Alonso in the 5 laps before his "Ooops, I should have started braking by now".

BUT, thought Alonso did move over again and maybe blocked his line.

Brilliant move by JPM on Schumie though...at least he's got the balls to do it! :D

Yep I saw a guy with extremely quick reactions avoid quite a big accident when racing under braking. I guess cars than can do 0-100-0 in under 6 seconds are quite difficult to drive.

I saw nothing wrong just that Alonso broke early and he was trying to go past him. They dont fit four pot road brakes to F1 cars you know ;).

[Edited by chrisp - 6/29/2003 3:15:31 PM]

Oh yes it was magnificent the way he avoided the back of Alonso and got NO POINTS again!!!!

The point is that Coulthard is supposed to be an F1 driver.

He knew Alonso was having braking problems into the chicane (witness the side by side incident two laps prior to that one).

Would it not therefore have been prudent to anticipate that Alonso may just brake a little earlier than one would normally.

Anyway at least he got past him (briefly). And people say he can't overtake!!!!

tiggers.

Shouldnt this be in the motorsport forum ;). With the rest of the armchair experts :D

[Edited by chrisp - 6/29/2003 4:19:10 PM]

Button still has the makings of the best British driver for a long time IMHO

He can even overtake sideways in mid air, wow he must be worth employin for another 3 years, NOT!

They dont fit four pot road brakes to F1 cars you know

No, they dont, you're right :) They fit 6 piston carbon calipers :)

no they dont, the calipers are made from high grade aluminium. Its the Padds and disks that are Carbon.

I posted in motorsport about DC and the race. ;):D

Alonso was playing some clever games with his throttle, he even nearly had Shuey up his arse on the last corner and managed to just about hold on to 4th. Quite a smart driver is alonso.

Reference The Full Monty's :) great move on M. Schumacher, I was VERY disappointed by Ross Braun's response. .... no class indeed! Had the situation been exactly reversed, as has frequently been the case for over ten years now, with MS coming out on top, Braun would have had nothing but praise for his man.

The main thing that has annoyed me about F1 in the past ten years is the way the rules have been tailored to suit a good result for MS and the outfits he drove for, particularly Ferrari. MS must have yet another F1 record for the most wins in the pits or stewards room! Yes, he's undoubtedly the best driver of the past decade but not the most enjoyable to watch. With this in mind, I'd prefer to see him win on merit alone without help from the pits or stewards room to the detriment of a true result as has so often been the case. To be fair, more recently the F1 authorities have got the message about this and are doing something about it. However, had it been Montoya who spun and was assisted apparently even by a non-marshall to get going again, he'd have had his points removed such is still the favourable treatment of the rules to suit Ferrari and especially MS.

Purely my own interpretation of the way I've seen things during the M. Schumacher ( I had a nice win on him last time) era...;)

BTW, I had a substantial bet on both Williams' drivers today so Bernie E is not the only shrewed judge. I placed my bet well before the TV coverage .... not that clever as I did not have a 1-2 forecast .... DOH!

[Edited by MGJohn - 6/29/2003 9:04:07 PM]

I got 15/2 on Ralfie. Suffice to say I made a tidy profit...anyone selling a mountain bike? (Sorry wrong forum!) :D

... back on thread.... there's more:

Yes, have to agree, DC's days as an F1 driver are numbered.

If Rikkenen (?sp) ever learns to stay in front whilst at the same time saving his engine as MS has done so often, he'll win lots of GPs. To win you must first finish before you can finish first ...:D I think he'll have a severe talking too when the media are no longer around ..... ;) and if he listens, he will be even more successful.

worley .... me too! ...I thought 15/2 was good value ;)... there was a lot of money for Rikkenen all morning ( 5/2 from 7/2 )and they were not far off having a result. MS at odds-on was NOT good value today at this circuit on very recent Ferrari form.

The real puzzle was the way Monty drove ... I wonder why? I expected better .... :(

i am confused, why will Kimi get a talking too?? The engine going pop had nothing to do with the way Kimi drove, he has no influence over the engine other than pressing a fly by wire throttle pedal, he doesnt even choose the shift point, thats done by GPS positioning software.

There was nothing wrong with MS getting a push back onto the track, the rules were rewritten this year to allow that as long as the engine is still running. If he was bump started he would have been black flagged.

Agree with John - No reason for Kimi to get a talking to - he did nothing wrong - the engine let go - very little he can do about this. The telemetry would tell if he'd done anything daft and judging by the way he was greeted on the pit wall by the Mercedes and Mclaren people - I'd say he was OK.

I thought RBs comments about JPM were a joke. I think he was towing the party line though! Schumacher said afterwards that he would have done the same thing. Can't believe that the stewards had JPM under investigation after the race..

Alonso is a VERY smart driver. He outsmarted Coulthard (I agree he is a muppet :) ) and forced him into an error. I think he and Kimi and maybe Button will have a lot of battles in the years to come.

Chris

the calipers are made from high grade aluminium

I dont know much about F1, but all the info I've seen says that the calipers are carbon, too. The following URL, for example, says so.

http://redpassion.altervista.org/tecnica/freni.htm

On the JPM move on Schumacher, I have felt for some time now, that F1 is being ruled by, or maybe pyrely for Micheal, I thought all was supposed to be fair in this game, JPM left acres of space, but Schuey's a to55er!!!

your article is wrong, not that i can read what it says. LOL

FIA F1 technical regulations for brakes are :

ARTICLE 11 : BRAKE SYSTEM
11.1 Brake circuits and pressure distribution :
11.1.1 All cars must be equipped with only one brake system.
This system must comprise solely of two separate
hydraulic circuits operated by one pedal, one circuit
operating on the two front wheels and the other on the
two rear wheels. This system must be designed so that if
a failure occurs in one circuit the pedal will still operate
the brakes in the other.
11.1.2 The brake system must be designed in order that the
force exerted on the brake pads within each circuit are
the same at all times.

11.2 Brake calipers :
11.2.1 All brake calipers must be made from aluminium
materials with a modulus of elasticity no greater than
80Gpa.
11.2.2 No more than two attachments may be used to secure
each brake caliper to the car.
11.2.3 No more than one caliper, with a maximum of six
pistons, is permitted on each wheel.
11.2.4 The section of each caliper piston must be circular.

11.3 Brake discs :
11.3.1 No more than one brake disc is permitted on each
wheel.
11.3.2 All discs must have a maximum thickness of 28mm and
a maximum outside diameter of 278mm.
11.3.3 No more than two brake pads are permitted on each
wheel.
11.4 Air ducts :
Air ducts for the purpose of cooling the front and rear brakes
shall not protrude beyond :
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of
140mm above the horizontal centre line of the wheel ;
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of
140mm below the horizontal centre line of the wheel ;
- a vertical plane parallel to the inner face of the wheel rim
and displaced from it by 120mm toward the centre line of
the car.
Furthermore, when viewed from the side the ducts must not
protrude forwards beyond the periphery of the tyre or backwards
beyond the wheel rim.
11.5 Brake pressure modulation :
11.5.1 No braking system may be designed to prevent wheels
from locking when the driver applies pressure to the
brake pedal.
11.5.2 No braking system may be designed to increase the
pressure in the brake calipers above that achievable by
the driver applying pressure to the pedal under static
conditions.
11.6 Liquid cooling :
Liquid cooling of the brakes is forbidden.

Thanks for that, John :)

I saw another Italian article and it said the same thing as the one the URL to which I posted. I didnt post this link to an Italian site to confuse anybody, but simply because I couldnt find detailed specs for F1 braking systems in English by doing a quick search.

Now, if the rules are what you posted (which I am sure is the case) then where does that Italian BS come from? :confused: Or are they cheating again? ;) :D

Some set of regulations....

I don't even see this type of thing in the chemical industry!

Can someone explain an efficient way to water cool brakes?

There's some info on LC on www.apracing.com (http://www.apracing.com) as they sell these. You could put that on your scooby I guess. 8 pot LC with a radiator and a water pump. I wonder what else except water you could put in there to make it cool better?

oh yee of little faith. :D LOL

http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/F1/F1-Reglements-techniques-2003-a.pdf

They used to make the calipers from berilium (its very light yet stiff), but that was banned because its causes cancer if its powdered and inhaled. The reason for the max stiffness rating is to reduce the eficiency of the brakes, to try and slow the cars down. Ap can make stiffer calipers than that, F1 just wont allow it.

Water cooling is there to cool the brake fluid, not the brake pads/disks. I designed my own system a few years ago as a stop gap measure on the Esprit race car. best liquid for cooling is pure water with a water wetter.

I do have faith in you, John, as I said above :)

... which doesnt mean that I did not take a look at article 11.2.1 from the link you provided anyway, but hey, you know what your German friends say: "Vertrauen ist gut, Kontrolle ist besser" :D LOL

Now what's a water wetter and isnt the caliper cooled to cool the, well, caliper? (talking rally cars here)

Not saying the brake fluid doesnt need cooling, as it obviously does, since most brake fluids are only good up to 300°C and a little less when "wet" (3% water in the fluid?) Arent there separate systems to cool the brake fluid ie a small rad in the fluid system?

the caliper is cooled to prevent the fluid inside it from boiling, the caliper body and pistons/seals are capable of handling the temperatures without cooling, the fluid isnt.

There are various systems available to cool the fluid, you can use a fluid shunt system which transfers the fluid out of the caliper each time you release the pedal, replacing it with new cooler fluid.

The caliper cooling systems are pumping cold water around the caliper body in the same way an engine cooling system works, this of course means you have a complicated casting/machining of the caliper body and you have to provide the aditional piping and pumps etc. This adds weight and complexity, so its best if you can get away without using it.

Lower spec race calipers use alluminium pistons that pass a lot of heat into the fluid, the best calipers use stainless steel or titanuim pistons as they dont pass as much heat. A lot depends on the pads you use as to how much heat is transfered, carbon metalic pads generate a lot more fluid heat than conventional pads. you can also buy ceramic shims that sit between the pad and piston, but these tend to give a vague pedal feel and brake up after a while, we tried them and didnt like them which is why we designed the water cooling system until we had time to get stainless steel pistons made. (we made our own rather than pay AP a huge amount of money)

Brake cooling is a big subject, brakes are far more complex when you are talking racing cars than most people realise.

oh, a water wetter is a chemical that breaks down the surface tension of water, allowing it to transfer heat more eficiently, it literally makes water wetter. :D

That sounds funny, "water wetter" :D

Lots of excellent info there, John, the kind of info I was looking for but never got. I totally agree that brakes are a far more complicated subject than one might think at first.

Aluminium vs stainless steel pistons: What sort of difference are we talking about in terms of heat transfer to fluid / fade resistance?

The fluid shunt system you mentioned, how does that work and same as above, what difference in terms of temp / fade resistance?

Back on the Track ...

John F WROTE:

>> i am confused, why will Kimi get a talking too?? <<

Talking to: For obvious reasons it's not going to happen in full view of the cameras. My view of RD's body language as Kimi walked along the McLaren crew line obviously differs to others' view of that.

Also >> he has no influence over the engine other than pressing a fly by wire throttle pedal, <<

Now I'm confused NOT. Are you saying that irrespective of the way or when he changes gear, brakes and/or uses the throttle, the gizzmos ALWAYS have the final engine saving say? Might just as well screw the throttles open wide and let the gizzmos do the rest....:)

He also WROTE:

>> There was nothing wrong with MS getting a push back onto the track, <<

I'm aware of that ruling and it was explained several times during TV coverage. My query was that one of those who "assisted" MS back onto the track from a "dangerous position" was not a Marshall. Looked more like a spectator and if so, how come he had such immediate access to the track. We were also informed that the stewards were looking into J-P-M's driving during the incident. Why only his? Call me an old cynic but I'd bet money that had it been anyone other than the F1 autorities favourite son, there would have been a different outcome.

Just my 1 pees worth ..... :)



[Edited by MGJohn - 6/30/2003 10:21:19 PM]