Right chaps, I'm being lazy here...

I'm installing a new bathroom, and am pumping the taps as well as the shower, as they require a minimum 1 bar pressure from a balanced hot / cold supply.

So I'm pumping hot AND cold. I have a Stuart Turner Monsoon 3 bar twin pump for this job.

The hot water tank is in the loft. There's THREE header tanks above it, which leaves me somewhat confused... There's a small one with a supply to it with ballcock, a big one with supply/ballcock and a big one with disgusting festering water in it for god only knows what reason.

I need to take a supply for the cold off one of these to pump it.

I'm intending to just hack into the larger supplied one.

Anyone spot the obvious flaw in this?

Ta,
Nick.

yeah... you havent got a clue what your doing..

Id be suprised if your cold water comes from a tank..

could just turn hot tap on and see which tank fills up...

then flush the toilet and see if a tank fills up..

then guess the other one is for the heating as you dont have a combi boiler...

do any have a 22mm copper pipe bent over the top and back into it?

(either that or Ill come and have a look and give my advice :D)
David

also 1 bar isnt much water pressure... you could have a pressure test done... but IMHO I dont think you should pump the taps for the sink... also check that you feeds are big enough for the pump... may require 22mm and some baths I have seen have only had 15mm on both..

David

Yep, the smaller one has a 22mm thingy bent over into it. The cold water in the whole of the house comes from the mains to my knowledge...

I'm guessing one is for heating, one is the header tank for the hot water, but what's the "waste" one for?

The hot won't be 1 bar tho, and whatever, it won't be balanced. That's why I'm pumping both. Yeah, I know it's a pain in the arse. And having spent good money on the pump, I intend to use it :D

[Edited by chiark - 12/18/2002 2:56:32 PM]

dont say I didnt warn you...

David

Cheers mate :D . I think :D

RIght, done a bit of playing...

The two large tanks are actually commoned together at their base with 22mm pipework and are the header tanks for the hot water tank. Why one is covered in ****e and the other one isn't is beyond me but never mind.

There's a 22mm pipe bent over into one of them (from the hot water cylinder?)

The smaller tank must be for the central heating at a guess? Is that normal? Help.

The manual for the pump says to take the cold side of the supply from the same header tank that supplies the hot. At least I should have plenty of water capacity to do this...

the other tank will be for the heating then..

sounds like youve got some interesting plumbing to do..

give me a shout if you want a hand... (mobile is back on now.. same number)

David

Mate, I will definitely want all the help I can get. To be honest, I think you spotted the flaw in my plans in your first post: I'm clueless :D

Tune into the DIY forum next week for...

'Chiark goes paddling indoors'

:D

I'm gonna borrow one of Mr W's sayings...

FO(tm)

I have good insurance, and this is covered. Good ol' Rum* :D

you using hep20 (sp) style pipe... or traditional best know how to hold a blowtorch copper pipe??

End feed or solder ring (shouldnt ask I know how lazy you are..)

If your using copper, get a good pipe bender... them springy ones hurt your knees..

David

I was going to use copper and make joints with yorkshire fittings (pre-filled with solder). Haven't got a pipe bender...

Try to bear in mind that you will need a minimum 50 gallons of actual storage water,the cold supply shouldn't really be pumped to the toilet, the new cold supply from the tank should feed the pump and nothing else, the hot supply should also be dedicated to the pump only via an essex or surrey connection and lastly fit all recommended isolation and non-return valves. Ahh nearly forgot what is the rating of your pump as some Stuart Turner pumps can only be run for 15mins in each hour, hope this is helpful

Mog

whats an essex or surrey connection

?

David..An essex flange is an pipe connection which is drilled into the side of the hot water cylinder and made water tight via gaskets and split washers/nuts
An surrey flange is screwed into the top connection of the hot water cylinder and provides something like a dip tube so that water can be drawn to two separate points from one connection
Both of the above provide a hot water supply which won't be affected by some one else drawing water at the same time
The surrey flange is more DIY friendly and less prone to disasters, I hope the above makes sense.

Mog

Riiight, thanks mog.

I'm happy-ish with the cold, as I just whack another hole in the header tank for that.

The hot from the cylinder is a little more fraught with danger in my eyes. I'm tempted to use the existing outlet and tee off that... Is this a definite no-no? I guess I need to have a very good look at the cylinder and work out what I've got already on there, and hope like hell there's an existing outlet that's just not being used. (I'm an optimist).

By the looks of it, the surrey flange doesn't involve cutting into the tank, and the essex flange does.

I'll look at what I've got and report back :D

Cheers,
Nick.

This is what we've currently got:
http://www.chiark.com/scooby/image/plumbing.gif

I'm assuming that:
* The brown pipes are to/from boiler
* The small header tank is used to keep the central heating "topped up"
* The two large header tanks are joined and feed the hot water tank.
* The hot water supply currently comes out of the top of our cylinder, runs horizontally for a bit then tees off with supply to the house going down and overflow (or whatever its called) going back into the header tank as shown.

The existing non-power shower takes its supply t-d from the two large header tank pipes, but that's only 15mm piping so it's gotta go.

Given this setup, I'll take the cold for the shower off the header tanks.

I want to make life easy for myself and just t into the hot supply for the rest of the house, but this is the "least preferred" option for the pump.

The cylinder is very well lagged. Is there any point in me vainly searching for an existing secondary tapping on it, or is this just not a likely thing to have?

Cheers,

Nick.

Nick . working on the principle that if you teed off an existing hot supply pipe, having a jolly nice hot shower and someone downstairs does some washing up a decrease in flow will occur and also a temperature change ala funny tv commercials. A thermostatic mixer shower will compensate to a great extent but not 100%.A point to remmember is that unless any shower/pump/system is installed 100% to the manufacturers guide lines any after sales/service will be nil as per cars and their servicing requirements..
Mog

Continuing with yet more that you never wanted to know, I think I'm starting to understand.

I'm guessing that what I currently have will NOT be a surrey flange, it'll just be a standard connection.

What I need to buy is an anti-aeration flange, which then gives me the shower output and also the services to the rest of the house.

Surrey flange is a type of these, as is essex (which I ain't doing).

(If you listen carefully, you might hear a penny dropping here)

What about a warix flange? a quick google mentioned these and some things seemed to recommend 'em above and beyond a surrey.

Also, whilst playing around with this am I best off replacing my header tanks with a single 50 gallon header tank? One of 'em looks repulsive and if I supply the wash basin with this then I'll be cleaning my teeth with it, which doesn't really appeal.

All advice gratefully received. I am a sponge for knowledge :D

Nick.

Nick ..here we go
1.A warix flange is just another manufacturers name for the original surrey flange, a bit like sellotape/sticky/clear tape.
2.Unless your cylinder is quite large or new it is unlikely to have a secondary tapping (which is the same as a essex and the best point of use)
3.Their is no point in changing your cwst (cold water storage tanks) if the capacity is an actual 50 gallons, bearing in mind that if it says 50g on the side it means 50g right to the brim, so you really need a 50/70 which holds 70g to the brim but also holds 50g at a usable level.
4.If you are worried about brushing your teeth/drinking tank water then change the cwst and fit a bye law 30 kit with it which will include...A.air tight lid
B.insect screened breather in the lid
C.insect screen in the overflow connection and dip pipe
D.insulation jacket.

Mog

Nick ..I missed the bit about the repulsive looking tank, this is probably the central heating expansion tank. These can be truly disgusting and contain bugs, rats, fungus, rust, sludge and sometimes no water at all, but this is another can of worms deserving of another thread.
Mog

nick... photo time please...

is the pipe out of the hot water cylinder 22mm already??

if so I would tee off this... as theres only you two in the house :D

less work :D

David... like I say if you want us to have a look..

David

Mog

I am the proud owner of a nasty CH overflow tank.

Some rather nasty looking water also comes out of the rads when bled too.

Was thinking of putting some corrosion inhibitor etc in the system. It's about 3 yrs old and have no idea if it has been treated or not !

Any ideas ?

Russell

Now this will make you feel bad, as for what I do for a living it involves me blundering my way through lofts and allsorts when in a loft I nearly allways have a nose in the watertanks just to see whats in them"or fell in them" so far to date I kid you not"all dead"a mouse,birds,fiberglass,all maner of other bugs and crawly things that's why I allways tend to take a flask to work:eek:


Huxley

The disgusting tank is the one on the right of the diagram which, yes, feeds the hot water.

That's gonna go then as lying in bed I was thinking about this. Screwfix has a 50 gallon kit, including the whole shebang for 60 quid delivered next day, which strikes me as pretty good. Sounds like a need a larger one for preference tho...

The existing outlet is 22mm, yes.

Anyone recommend any good plumber's merchants in the Leeds area?

Ta,
Nick.

Picture, for what it's worth. The diagram is more use I think...

http://www.chiark.com/scooby/image/loft.jpg

The one on the right is the disgusting one. It's commoned up with the other larger tank and the water level drops when you run the hot water...

plumb centre near hand carwash sheepscar junction.

David

I know it - ta! Turns out there's a plumber's merchants just across from the office, too... Might have a wander over there then check out plumb centre.