Geezer

I notice all the frothing Brexiteers on this forum are remaining resolutely silent. Is that because they realise what a bad mistake it was and cannot bear to admit it? Or, despite daft things like IAJFFE accusations from certain posters, they don't actually care about the rest of the people because they "won". If this is victory, I'd hate to see defeat.......

hodgy0_2

but we know they don't do "accountability"

I suspect that is what prompted Sir Robin Day, when interviewing Sir John Nott of accusing him of being a "here-today, gone-tomorrow politician"

to which he promptly walked out

but in reality they all are - none will really be effected by Brexit, certainly not on a negative way

so why should they actually care

hodgy0_2

defeat - would have meant a re-vote


we know this from multiple lines of evidence, not least because Farage said it when he thought he would lose

cries of fraud, stolen victory, stabbed in the back - bit like Trump really

but then they are a bit like Trump supporters

trails

iTrader: (41)

going to be a bit of a **** and quote myself from the other thread with some minor changes;

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

I voted out. I tend to avoid scoobynet, especially NSR purely because of the intellectual snobbery you get. The middle class on here far outweigh the working class, and the brexit vote was without a shadow of a doubt a working class movement. I don't really expect the majority of NSR users to really understand why I voted out, as they simply lead a different life to those of us with working class backgrounds. I'm sure there will be an onslaught of people now claiming to be working class, but they quite clearly aren't. The middle class seem to think what they read or see on the news isn't propaganda or scare mongering to make them think Brexit is the end of the world as we know it. At least a large chunk of the working class have used their personal experiences and are able to see through the propaganda of the sun, mail, Britains first etc. The moronic excuse of "must have been the daily mail readers" of the remoaners just shows how thick some of the middle class are.

I'm sure my out vote would be labelled "racist" just as pretty much anything a white working class person with an ounce of passion does is. I very much doubt there are many people in the country, let alone this forum that rubs shoulders with as many different nationalities, cultures and religions as I do on a daily basis. Anybody who does actually converse with other cultures will tell you those cultures think the UK is a laughing stock. I can only imagine a reverse scenario, to put it into perspective.
If Romania/Poland/Bulgaria would pay me four times the wage I am currently on to do the same job I am doing I would go there. If there borders were weak enough for me to earn cash and bring it home untaxed I would. I would have no interest in the host country's long term stability and would only be concerned with lining my pockets, working all the hours I could and being very grateful for anyone willing to pay me silly money to do so. In just a few years I could earn enough to return home for good, buy a house either with a minimal mortgage or buy it cash. Anyone denying this are so far removed from reality they shouldn't have the right to vote.

The long term goal of the EU is a level playing field. For economies of the poorer countries to rise to an equal level the economies of the richer countries has to fall. Hence the level of payments into the EU from richer to poorer and the controls on exports and imports, as well as the funded movement of UK business' to poorer EU countries. The UK would have continued to suffer, we would still have to take in x amount of migrants, still be told what we could import and from where and still have to pay a massive amount just to be part of a club allowing us to be raped continually.

I love just how upset the EU member states are with us for daring to vote out. If we weren't a major player it wouldn't matter, if they didn't need our imports or rely on exporting to us then they wouldn't be phased. It is what it is, democracy has spoken, the down trodden working class who can barely afford to buy a house for themselves have had enough.

I am proud to have been part of the 17m who had enough bollocks to stand up to the establishment and the snobbery of the middle classes. Just because we don't wish to get berated by the baying mob of snobs day in day out doesn't mean we in anyway shape or form regret our decision.

Do you honestly believe that people "didn't know what they were voting for" because the BBC hand picked 2 or 3 interviews from the likely hundreds they did that day where a few morons said they didn't just to get on TV. Did you not ask yourself why they weren't asking remain voters why they voted to stay? Because they would have got the same answer.

scoobyboy1

iTrader: (16)

Well said Kwik

Pretty much how I felt about the country and why I voted out, I dont regret my decision one bit and I still believe we will come out stronger when we finally exit the EU!!!

JackClark

Untaxed! Yeah, the UK is right into not taxing people. The rest was a load of bollocks as well.

Geezer

So essentially voted against the establishment because they think they are a load of snobs and are out to get them, despite the fact that your decision will likely screw the economy, leaving people like yourself worse off because economic downturn usually affects the poorest elements of society, not the middle classes you you seem to despise and mistrust so much.

Seems perfectly logical. I'll try and find a knife so you can cut off your nose to spite your face, too.

This is exactly why we shouldn't have referendums, and why, if they get the chance, parliament should block article 50.

neil-h

Don't panic, we've still got the Qashqai

Uncle Creepy

Excellent post, Kwik - I couldn't have put it better myself. You're an astute man.

A few days ago, I actually started to write a reply to Geezer's post, but stopped halfway through, as I decided his post was too moronic to warrant a response.

I, too, generally avoid posting on NSR, as, like you say, and like I've said before, there is a small clique of very ignorant individuals - ironically they think they're very intelligent and worldly - who resort to little more than mob-mentality playground-bully tactics if anybody posts anything that doesn't fit in with their blinkered school of thought. Instead, I try to adhere to the mantra that somebody on here uses as their signature: "Never argue with stupid people - they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience".

The same clique members regularly post about how wonderful and enriched their lives are... yet they spend hours every day on a Subaru forum, essentially repeating themselves - never anything witty, never anything humorous, just the same nonsense over and over again. And that's the other reason I didn't reply to Geezer's post. These offshoot Brexit threads are just the same idiots repeating the same rubbish that they've already said a couple of dozen times on the main 'EU referendum' thread? What they expect to achieve, I have no idea. Why they don't just form their own Whatsapp group so they can all be negative and gullible and believe the media propaganda together, I have no idea. But I guess the world would be boring if we were all the same.

dpb

From someone who ran around in a golf in a frock for years before realising it might not be a good drive....

hodgy0_2

sore winners!!! lol

who would have thought it

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

As an ex working man, I don't see what real difference stay or go will make tbh, unless you're properly minted you're still going to get the **** end of the stick, this "middle class" concept is laughable, I have news for you all, There is no middle class, you're either minted or you're not, there is no inbetween, there are only varying degrees of nobody and the sad fact is that the vast majority of us are nobodies, perceived wealth is exactly that, 'perceived' we all live to our means, those with a higher income have higher expenditures, so the reality is they may live in a slightly bigger house, drive a nicer car but they're really no better off, most are 3 pay cheques away from loosing everything and sleeping rough.

In or out the status quo will remain the same, rich get richer, poor get poorer.

hodgy0_2

yes I have always thought this was b0ll0cks

I am white and have to work for a living

self labelling [yawn] - see the Aspergers thread

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

What you seem to be overlooking here is the important question of by how much. If anything, I'd say you're doing more that just overlooking it, you seem to be deliberately trying to gloss over the fact that being in or out could make a substantial difference to how much poorer the poor are (very) likely to get. Who knows though, maybe that's just your way of trying to make people like Kwik feel better about having just amputated their collective noses to spite their weather-worn working class faces.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

I understand you are angry. The attempts by the media to scaremonger people into voting the way the establishment wanted it, and the way you wanted it to go, backfired.
Thanks for highlighting the snobbery though Saying people like me shouldn't be given the vote as it doesn't go the way you wanted it. And this is what happens to the spoilt classes, used to getting their own way and sneering down on those they think (wrongly of course) are beneath them.

What you haven't quite worked out yet is that 0 contract hours, no overtime, 6 or 7 day working weeks and the exploitation of self employed rules and regulations means this country is already ****ed. You and others are so far removed from that you think its a myth. To remain in the EU the UK economy HAS to suffer. To make other EU countries prosper we HAVE to give large amounts of money, take their immigrants, import from countries we are ordered to rather than home grown and export under their guidelines and agreements.
As for me, well the company I work for works on a national level. Leaving the EU will hit rival companies that work on an international level, making my job safer, possibly resulting in expansion, taking on more employees, more internal trade etc etc. But that's the sort of scenario that remoaners are blind to.
And what's laughable is that you'll more than likely find its the remoaners that have been going on and on over the years about the lack of local farming products, local butchers, the lack of a British car manufacturing etc etc.

I wouldn't say I was seeing it as a "victory" though as the future is uncertain. But the future if we stayed in the EU would certainly be the same as it has been for the past 20 years.

As for an economic downturn, I think it could be a positive thing. Middle management seem to be the first to suffer in my experience. And you're talking about people working through agencies, 0 hr contracts already or those in permanent work are doing 60hr weeks, 6 or 7 days week in week out. It's the feckless that have time to ponce about on internet forums in the afternoon that will suffer, dragged down into a world they don't know. It will make the UK less attractive to migrants, less strain on the NHS, less demand in the housing market and renting will plummet. Social housing will rocket, rent to buy schemes, right to buy council housing will increase and normal people will be able to buy properties once again.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

There is a middle class. There is certainly a benefit class, much like immigrants I don't blame them as its there to be exploited.
The difference between working class and the middle classes in this day and age is the ability to buy your own property at a decent age.
Yes you are right in the fact that you live to your means, but most working classes have their belts tight week in week out. Any middle class person wishing to buy x, y or z has the option to put money aside to do so.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Some of what you say in your other posts has some merit, BUT and as you may notice it's a BIG BUT.

I don't consider myself to be middle class, not by a long shot, yet I own two houses, I grew up in rented accommodation, lived on a council estate for all of my formative years, I'm 50 and bought my first house at the age of 32 with bugger all cash in the bank, yet now by your reckoning i'm some how magically morphed into "middle class" I'm cash broke by most standards, I don't have some slush fund with which to finance myself, I live month by month, but on PAPER i'm worth in the region of £500k, unfortunately I can't draw on that, not that I want to as I don't like credit, but £100/200k against that would be nice and probably mean that I could make another £500k.

It's all about mind set not class.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Well I'm not trying to make anyone feel better and quite frankly, I don't give a **** about Kwik or anyone else for that matter, it's plainly and simply a reality check, the powers that be don't give two hoots about you, me or anyone else, all they care about is themselves and how much money they make, we, the vast majority mean **** ALL, get it and come to terms with it and then you'll be headed in the right direction. "WE" are there to be milked by parasites, the parasites are the ruling classes that already have way more than we can even begin to imagine.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Another post as it won't let me edit my others.

I live on around £200 a month, well I used to but it's gone up recently, so hardly a fox hunting toff with a Range Rover parked on the drive, all I did was recognise the system and use it to break free, as far as that is possible, you need to learn to do the same, instead of being angry at it and using all your brain power to bang your head against it, make it work for you.

trails

iTrader: (41)

Glad you are happy but your post is mostly bollocks; you lot bought the evil EU story and then voted for magic beans to fight them off. When actually its our own government that controlled the immigration and benefit policies.


I do understand the whole fight the power thing but to do so at such a high cost is daft...but you lot just can't see the bigger picture can you. The really sad part is even after the leaders of Brexit admitted their lies you still see this as a victory...and now all the class war 5hite

JTaylor

Kwik's consigned himself to the doldrums for the remainder of his days. He can't possibly enjoy the privileges and freedoms afforded to the middle-class as he's burnt his bridge. The best he can hope for is to be a working-class hero. Great.

Actually, it's all nonsense. Constructs and illusions. As Ditch' says, work the system to your advantage. Focus on your own sphere of influence and don't let the controlling few divide and conquer the masses. As Jim Morrison put it in Five to One "they've got the guns but, we got the numbers"...

trails

iTrader: (41)

Hahahaha that did make me chuckle; free martyrdom with every copy of Socialist Worker


Second paragraph is on point too (I'm not sure why but I feel I should apologies for use of that phrase; sorry!)

JTaylor

First time I heard that phrase was 25 years ago on the Tribe Called Quest track Check the rhime (from the brilliant Low End Theory album). Anyway, quarter of century later and it appears to have entered mainstream language. I quite like it. It's on point.

Geezer

Well, both sides had media trying to scare people in their own ways, both side told lies, so to claim it was all engineered by 'the establishment' is disingenous to say the least.

I didn't say people you shouldn't have the vote, those are your words, not mine. I said that we should not have referendums. We elect government to make decisions on our behalf. The government took us in to the EU because they thought it would be good for the country. They were right, we thrived, the UK was in a dark place back then. It is still good for us, albeit some aspects of it are less desirable than others, I don't think anyone would say it is perfect. However, you can't change something from the outside.

And what you failed to realise, or ignore, or deny, is that the EU has provided more worker protection than any UK govt, so once we leave, the govt won't be 'shackled' by those nasty EU laws. It will be interesting to see how that one plays out....

Of course, there are winners and losers in all scenarios. It's the ratio tha is important. If there are more losers than winners, then it's bad for the UK. The majority view from business, foreign investors, banks etc, is that it will be a bad thing. We shall see, won't we?

What has this got to do with the EU? The decline in the British manufacturing sector has more to do with the emergence of China and the Tiger economies, and the self destruction of the Trade Union movement in the 70s and 80s. Who will you blame for our lack of competitiveness once we have left the EU?

You voted for something, you got it, how else would you see it?

Blimey, are you the editor of Class War, comrade? The UK needs migrant workers. Lots of them. About 55k migrant workers in the NHS alone, they can't get the people they want from the UK.

And, you think that people losing their jobs is a positive thing? Less people earning and contributing to the economy, more of a burden on the welfare system. I'm not really sure why that is of benefit, unless you think they can then take all the jobs that will be freed up by no immigration? Yeah, that will work for the UK......

hodgy0_2

this is the single biggest con to me

in part Cameron's "Leave" campaign was shacked with this inevitable truth - as to some extent he was guilty of peddling these same myths

I said it before - he will go down in history as the single biggest prime ministerial disaster the country has ever had

Blair caused carnage, but luckily for us it was mainly in the Middle East

hodgy0_2

sounds ominously like the slash and burn scorched earth philosophy of the Führer Bunker

I joked before "maybe we need to make the UK so sh1te no one would bother coming"

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Sorry but this proves my point. Someone with 2 houses doesn't think of themselves as Middle Class and wants to hang onto their working class routes.

I'm the youngest of 4, all 4 of us have pretty good jobs ranging from Carpenter, Manager and Accountant. My 3 older brothers like me have worked since the day they left school. My eldest brother at the ripe old age of 42 was the first to be able to get a mortgage which is only part buy - part rent. He was only able to stump up the deposit due to a horrific injury he had playing football.
If we manage to buy through the right to buy scheme, we will only be able to do so because of the massive discount we get through council housing, which would serve as a deposit. My 2 other brothers are stuck renting, I very much doubt they'd ever be in a position to buy.

For most people being able to save a deposit whilst renting is near impossible. There will be almost an entire generation of people unable to buy property in the UK except either the rich or those with wealthy parents. We were fortunate to get council housing when we did, its virtually impossible now. So people can't get social housing, can't afford to buy so they get tied into renting and can't get out. So, like you say the rich get richer, especially those who have more than one property .

As for "mind set" well your mind set seems to be "I could play around with this money, that money and make myself better off..." If you honestly think that is the mind set of the typical working class person then you are so far removed from your working class roots it is unreal. Most Working class people would like the chance to earn an extra 50 pound let alone 500k .

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Interesting that you think I could be somehow removed from my roots.

My parents had 7 kids between them, I'm the youngest, no one GAVE me anything, I worked for it all, at one point I had 3 jobs, day job 7am till 5pm, worked in a pub as a barman 3 nights a week and drove a taxi on weekends to get where I am now, along the way to where I am now I did anything that came my way, I've cleaned toilets, worked on a council tip, been a waiter amongst many other things to get by by any means necessary.

What's wrong with people these days is they're not prepared to do things like that, they want it all on a plate and think they have some sort of god given right to own a house, well it's not like that I'm afraid, you have to work your **** off and give up trips to mcdonalds, the cinema, the playstation, Iphones, big screen tv's, the list goes on and on, also lowering ones expectations, what's wrong with owning a one bed flat , I spent the first 5yrs of my life with 4 of us in one room with a radio and a parafin lamp , then we lived in my dads cousins loft for about 3yrs, and that was like luxury with our own toilet instead of a metal pale to pee in, I still remember my dad emptying it every morning. Then we lived in a flat until I was about 15 when we got a council house.

People think that you just get lucky and win the lottery or someone just rolled up and said "there you go mate, here's a 3 bed detached with a garage" my first house was a wreck in a Very dodgy area bought for £50k and it took me 9yrs to fix it up putting everything I had into it, not spending money on old Subarus and complaining about how **** my life is this one I'm in now I paid £25k for all in and I've spent the last 12yrs working on it pretty much alone, living in a foreign country for the most part away from my family, with all that that entails, it's not easy, but that's my choice.

Simple fact is mate if you want things in life you have to get off your **** and do something about it and give up a LOT of things to get there, I grew up with next to f.u . c k. all so it's nothing new to me and I've never been work shy, but this "Poor Me" society that we live in is the problem.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Nobody doubts the EU worked for us in years gone by. However it is the slowest growing economy in the world, possibly because of the way it is set up. And as the EU has shown it has no intention of change even when we were inside, and actually given the out vote by the UK you'd hope they'd look at themselves and think change is needed if a nation votes to get out.

The EU could have looked at our referendum and seen it as a threat, they didn't. They were sure we'd have stayed in and accepted the terms we'd always had. They could have come out a month before the vote with the possibility of different terms which would leave them open to others wanting the same but it would have secured the UK's involvement. And since the vote the have had the "it's my ball and you're not playing" kind of attitude.

We should have referendums. The problem is the media is pushing an agenda from one side or another. You're either an "idiot daily mail reader" (I had no idea the daily mail had a circulation of 17m ) or someone who thinks the BBC is gospel. Getting a true representation of facts would be near impossible.

Nope, I don't deny the EU has brought in employment legislation. We have it now, as long as we don't U-turn on those regulations then there isn't a problem. As they are established it would take a lot to go back. But we also have 0 hour contracts, the evil in employment these days. Like housing, an employers market leaves the employee to either accept those terms or stay out of work. I must have had 300 applications for positions that will only last 8 weeks, of which I only have 20 short term jobs to fill. I can pick and choose and have a supply should anyone not fit the bill once they've started.

You're looking at one side of the coin when it comes to the NHS. Depending on who you believe the NHS apparently spends 1bn a year on non UK nationals. So 11 percent of the NHS are non UK nationals, but those places WOULD get filled. The big picture is that 11 percent in the NHS, and all other industries need housing, that creates a renters market, higher rent, less UK owned homes and more strain on social housing. I'm afraid the whole "Ah the bloke in the village post office is a nice foreign chap, I'm voting for him to stay" is just as ignorant as the "get them out" attitude.

Our lack of competitiveness comes from the lack of funding UK based industries. I'm not saying that is a direct EU result, but for a start if we aren't importing cars from Germany by the bucket load it creates the chance for a British Manufacturer to build UK cars for UK customers. If we weren't encouraged to move industry to other EU countries, there'd be more jobs. More money into the economy, less strain on welfare (which needs a complete reform). I really don't understand how someone can say....
...but ignore the fact the EU has funded UK industries to move out of the UK.